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drop header -how and whhy

Jim Pompetti
Jim Pompetti Member Posts: 552
Always follow the direction. I do not like WM as a steamer
the passages are to small and I've found them hard to skim
If you insist on used one put full port clean out on each leg,make sure to provide a skim tap.

Comments

  • Dan_29
    Dan_29 Member Posts: 111
    drop header -how and why

    I am having a Weil-Mclain EG55 steam boiler(one pipe system-538 sq ft of edr) installed in my house and have some questions about the installation.

    The WMc installation instructions indicate the a three inch diameter main riser and steamhead off the boiler is recommended. I understand that if a main riser is to small the boiler may lift water with the steam which is at too high a velocity, go low water, water hammer and/or fail to heat some radiators. My boiler installer pro is installing a 2 1/2 inch main riser and connecting it to a 2 1/2 inch drop header(with three two inch mains feeding off of it) which he says will slow the excess velocity of the steam exiting the boiler due the undersizing of the main riser.

    Does anyone out there have experience with drop headers? How and why does a drop header work? Would it not be easier to just use the 3 inch main riser and header that WM suggests? The pro installer (who seems to know his steam) says he has installed near boiler piping this way before and has had no problems.
  • Steamhead (in transit)
    Steamhead (in transit) Member Posts: 6,688
    The EG-55

    requires only one riser from the boiler to the header. However, that riser is supposed to be 3-inch, not 2-1/2-inch. The header should also be 3-inch. This is from the EG-EGH installation manual which I have on a CD-ROM.

    With only one riser, the reason for a drop header would be to increase the height of the riser to the header. This should be a minimum of 24 inches from the highest possible boiler water line. If a boiler needs two or more risers to the header, using a drop header makes the header easier to put together and it handles expansion stresses much better.

    I doubt that using 2-1/2-inch pipe would work well in this situation. The velocity would be too high. Insist on 3-inch like it says in the manual.

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  • Robert O'Connor_12
    Robert O'Connor_12 Member Posts: 728
    Dan

    The EG makes steam very rapidly and needs every bit of both "the recommended" 3" riser and header due to its small steam chest. I'd suggest its installation be "by the book".
    Take a look at page 11, minimum (key word), on WM piping chart. The installation is suppose to at least conform to the minimum requirements.

    See attached:

    http://www.weil-mclain.com/FTP/EG-EGH/EG_EGH_BoilerManual.pdf


    Robert O'Connor/NJ
  • Dan_29
    Dan_29 Member Posts: 111
    drop header feedback

    Thanks for your advice.

    I agree that a 3 inch main riser and header is the way to go. Nevertheless, the pro installer states that the the three 90 degree (2 1/2 inch) elbows which feed into the drop header and the 1 1/2 inch equalizer at the end of the header manifold will reduce the excess cubic feet per minute (of steam) and any water lifted out of the boiler and return it to the boiler immmediatly rather than allowing wet steam to go up the three two inch risers which are connected to the steam head manifold.

    Is this plausible?

    I am concerned that if I have any problems this year or during the 10 year boiler section guarantee, Weil Mclain will say "you aren't covered because you used a reducer bushing to fit a 2 1/2 inch main riser rather than a 3 inch main and steamhead we recommeded. I will bet it won't be the first time this has happend to an uninformed customer.

    Dan
  • Steamhead (in transit)
    Steamhead (in transit) Member Posts: 6,688
    Tell this guy

    he either does it by the book or you get someone else to do it. Then try the Find a Professional page of this site.



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  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,078
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • that's right

    Steamhead is right, there is the only way to piped the steam boiler.... The Right way! I've seen too many good boiler/system get ruined by improper installations... If ur installer won't do it by the book, set him packing... If u let him do what he want, don't call Wiel Mclain with ur problems....
  • jim s_2
    jim s_2 Member Posts: 113
    not much of a pro

    if he insists on not doing it by the book.

    If he`s got 3" risers already why go through the trouble of adapting to 2 1/2"?
  • ed wallace
    ed wallace Member Posts: 1,613
    dropped header

    ok guys im the idiot non proffesional that just installed this mans Wiel - Mclain boiler using a 2 1/2 in dropped header Wiel-Mclains cut sheet says the minimum header size to be used is 2 1/2 inches I had more the enough space to have 24 inches above the water line before the 1st 90 elbow I used a 24 in long nipple then staarted the dropped header now customer is upset with me thanks guys

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  • Was there

    a revision in the Weil Mclain specs for the EG-55 ? Is that what you installed , Ed ?
  • Steamhead (in transit)
    Steamhead (in transit) Member Posts: 6,688
    Well, if that's what you have

    in the instructions that came with the boiler, then obviously you're OK and the customer should be too. I wonder why they were changed?

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  • ed wallace
    ed wallace Member Posts: 1,613
    dropped header

    I will dig up the info and show the customer it says the minimum for riser is 2 1/2 in minimum for equilizer is 1 1/2 inches

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  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,078
    the online manual

    shows 3'' single riser and 3'' header..but perhaps the online stuff may not be updated.

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  • somebody

    Somebody from Weil-McLain should be responding to this thread by now....
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,092
    direct pipe equilevent

    I have also ran into guys that think the 3 ells used for a drop header equals 9 or 12 feet of straight pipe 'it my friend does not i have been through this quite a few times please for your own benefit show thuis guy to the door and find some one who will pipe your steam boiler according to the nmanafactors suggestion .I had a peerless steam boiler which a good commerical steam fitter had pipe and he believed the same also .The system produced wet steam which made some rads gurgle from the steam being wet . After the HO contacted the manfactors he found out the same and the steam fitter blamed the boiler maker i personally blame the fitter for not reading and following the manafactors near boiler piping .Please do your self a favor use the find a pro listing and find your self some one who will pipe it correctly those who pipe them, wrong have a giant list of reason why it does not matter and most will not re pipe it over again for free .Have it done according to the manafactors diagrams and you will be in the clear,have your raditor and main vents replaced and the boiler skimmed to remove oil and debrie from the repiping also check pitch on the radirtors and steam mains ,Get a pro they usually do all these things and don,t make excuses for not doing it right peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • jackchips_2
    jackchips_2 Member Posts: 1,338
    From everything

    I have read, Ed Wallace is a pro.

    Shouldn't everyone get an entire story before jumping to conclusions or giving advice on a system that has already been installed?

    Jack
  • Steamhead (in transit)
    Steamhead (in transit) Member Posts: 6,688
    Unfortunately

    mis-piped steamers are very common and very troublesome. It's extremely rare to find such a debate resulting from revised instructions. Most times this comes up, the installer used the unopened instruction envelope as a knee pad.

    If Ed says he went by the book, I believe him.

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  • Dan_29
    Dan_29 Member Posts: 111
    Weil Mclain eg55 riser-steamhead issue

    I placed a call to Weil Mclain Customer service. I mentioned this posting. Customer Service has referred it over to Engineering. I am waiting for a response.

    Dan
  • went into

    I went into my "filing" system during lunch for some old Weil Mclain spec sheets, found one from 1996 and 2003, they both say 3" for eg 55 boiler.... Would like to hear from weil mclain dept of engineering...
  • ed wallace
    ed wallace Member Posts: 1,613
    dropped header

    the boiler has been repiped in 3 inch cast iron I had a senior moment when reading the spec sheet but the minimum recommeded pipe size for the EG55 is 3 inch that is not cast in stone its only recommended boiler will be up and running tomorrow

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  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    Ed is a Pro's Pro

    All of us here have made mistakes. When you quit making mistakes it means you're dead.

    Ed provided the opportunity for everyone here to see what a pro does when he makes a mistake. He takes care of it.

    Thanks for shining the light down the straight and narrow pathway Ed!
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,078
    your a good man Ed..

    you've taken care of the customer and done the trade well..i won't tell you about the time i put a manhole cover on upside down...opps..

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  • Pete_18
    Pete_18 Member Posts: 197
    3 vs. 2.5

    Out of curiosity, what does the 3 inch header help accomplish when there is a 2.5 inch steam tapping?

    What kind of problems would Dan have experienced with a 2.5 inch header vs. 3 inch?
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    Yes he is Steve


    and it's the second time that Ed has been body slammed on this forum.

    First time was a disgruntled HO and this time it was by some of the regulars that post here.

    Not one "call the installer and talk to him about it", nope, just "send the slacker packing and consult the "Find A Professional" link on this site".....

    The fact that the "installer" used a drop header should have been a tip off to the regulars here that the "installer" was a bit more up to speed on how steam systems work. Not the work of a hacker.

    Some of you owe Ed an apology. He admitted his mistake and fixed it. Everyday people come to this site with questions about their heating systems. Sometimes they tend to be VERY cryptic in the way the pose their questions. The fact is that we NEVER know whether we are getting the whole story. Posting manufacturers written instructions is one thing, no-one can argue with that. Destroying a customers faith in their contractor for a simple misreading of the manual is indefensible.

    This isn't Mount Olympus and none of us are gods.

    Ed Wallace is THE FINEST person I have EVER had the pleasure of meeting. He is as honest as the day is long AND he LOVES WHAT HE DOES! To the customer that started this thread...sir, you hired the best you could have hired. Ed made a mistake and addressed it. Be at ease, you are in good hands.

    One thing for the "fast draw McGraw's" to remember. One of these days it might be one of your customers posting here and you will be calling yourself an idiot.

    Ed Wallace.........you sir are top of the shelf.

    Mark H

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  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    EG series boiler


    has 3" taps.

    What problems would the customer have noticed???

    More than likely.............. none.

    Mark H



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  • Maine doug
    Maine doug Member Posts: 47
    Looks like

    more was learned here than info about the spec for a 3 inch pipe. Great place this is for many things.
  • gerry gill
    gerry gill Member Posts: 3,078
    gwgillplumbingandheating.com
    Serving Cleveland's eastern suburbs from Cleveland Heights down to Cuyahoga Falls.

  • Pete_18
    Pete_18 Member Posts: 197
    tappings

    I was thinking it would have been similiar to the SGO, thanks.

    I wonder why WM put only 1 - 2 1/2 tapping on the SGO-5, but 2 3 inch tappings on the EG55 when the SGO-5 actually is rated for more steam.
  • Brad White_71
    Brad White_71 Member Posts: 11
    Hear, Hear for Ed Wallace

    Ed stepped up to the plate, made it right. One cannot ask for more testimony to a man's character than that.

    Makes me wish I had a steam system.

    BEW
  • Dan_29
    Dan_29 Member Posts: 111
    Ed

    I interviewed 6 boiler installers before choosing Ed Wallace to do my boiler. He was the only one who really knew his steam.

    I downloaded the WM eg 55 installation instructions and their piping charts could be better designed (i.e a blank space between boiler size groups) to clearly delineate different piping sizes for the respective boilers.

    It is possible that the 2 1/2 inch riser and steamhead would not have caused any problems, but after reading Holohan's books(follow all installation instructions-exactly or else!), I did not want to take any chances. Not to mention giving Weil Mclain a chance to void my warranty.

    Ed Wallace is correcting a number of problems that have plagued this heating system for decades(surging, water hammer and 40% oversizing) due to neglect and ignorance. It is really coming along.


    Dan
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,092
    sorry Ed

    I,m sorry Ed ,but i get called now and then and run into undersized header and the like of , if i had knowen it was you i would not of had posted knowing your a true pro from past post i aplogize and take back any thing that may have offended you sorry buddy .Your work is always top rate and needs no second guessing peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • same here

    Even though I haven't met Ed or the other wallies, I sure hope some day I will.. I do admitted I've made mistakes and sure hope people let me know so I won't do it again.. It takes man to admit it and being honest about will keep ya moving... From reading ur posts and ur answers to help other wallies out, you are a professial,Ed...
  • Steamhead (in transit)
    Steamhead (in transit) Member Posts: 6,688
    But you missed these:

    > and it's the second time that Ed has been body

    > slammed on this forum.

    >

    > First time was a

    > disgruntled HO and this time it was by some of

    > the regulars that post here.

    >

    > Not one "call the

    > installer and talk to him about it", nope, just

    > "send the slacker packing and consult the "Find A

    > Professional" link on this site".....

    >

    > The fact

    > that the "installer" used a drop header should

    > have been a tip off to the regulars here that the

    > "installer" was a bit more up to speed on how

    > steam systems work. Not the work of a

    > hacker.

    >

    > Some of you owe Ed an apology. He

    > admitted his mistake and fixed it. Everyday

    > people come to this site with questions about

    > their heating systems. Sometimes they tend to be

    > VERY cryptic in the way the pose their questions.

    > The fact is that we NEVER know whether we are

    > getting the whole story. Posting manufacturers

    > written instructions is one thing, no-one can

    > argue with that. Destroying a customers faith in

    > their contractor for a simple misreading of the

    > manual is indefensible.

    >

    > This isn't Mount

    > Olympus and none of us are gods.

    >

    > Ed Wallace

    > is THE FINEST person I have EVER had the pleasure

    > of meeting. He is as honest as the day is long

    > AND he LOVES WHAT HE DOES! To the customer that

    > started this thread...sir, you hired the best you

    > could have hired. Ed made a mistake and addressed

    > it. Be at ease, you are in good hands.

    >

    > One

    > thing for the "fast draw McGraw's" to remember.

    > One of these days it might be one of your

    > customers posting here and you will be calling

    > yourself an idiot.

    >

    > Ed Wallace.........you sir

    > are top of the shelf.

    >

    > Mark H

    >

    > _A

    > HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

    > 238&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

    > Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

    > "Find A Professional"_/A_





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  • Steamhead (in transit)
    Steamhead (in transit) Member Posts: 6,688
    But you missed these, Mark:

    "From everything I have read, Ed Wallace is a pro."

    and "If Ed says he went by the book, I believe him."

    I don't agree that the thread started out as a body-slamming of Ed. At that point it could have been anyone, and we all stayed true to one of the basic principles of boiler installation: "Read and Follow the manufacturer's instructions". We all know what happens if you don't!

    Ed has shown he is a true pro by the following:

    1- he came into the thread and let us know this was one of his jobs;

    2- he did in fact read the manual; and

    3- he admitted to a "senior moment" when reading the manual, and corrected the problem. This could happen to anyone, what's important is how you deal with it.

    And Dan will have a well-operating steam system for years to come. I'd say that's a "happy ending".

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  • Dan_29
    Dan_29 Member Posts: 111
    Weil Mclain reply

    Weil Mclain Engineering responded by e-mail saying that there has been no change in their installation manual for the EG55.

    Dan
  • Paul_58
    Paul_58 Member Posts: 18
    finding a pro

    Ed, Did any of the other installers give you a quote? I ask because of recent thread on the wall regarding the "cost" of pricing jobs. Some pros would think you were wasting their time if they knew they were the 6th call. Congratulations to Ed for landing the job and making it right.
  • Dan_29
    Dan_29 Member Posts: 111
    quotes

    Four of the six contractors did not know their steam based on my reading of Dan Holohan's books*. The other one knew his steam but quoted a price out of this world. There is a market for such services,however,I am not in that weatlhy group.

    Ed was the only one who knew his steam and was competitive in his bid.

    Dan

    * the rejected four said things like copper is ok , increase steam pressure to 3-10 psi for better heating, one only recommended equipment by number of sections while neglecting to measure the edr of the radiators-- (undersized the boiler), the other recommended an oversized boiler without explaining his method.

    Dan
  • Yep

    I don't see where Ed was " body slammed " . Someone said to send him packing IF he can't do it by the book . True to Ed's work ethic he did the right thing . And repiping a main that size is no easy or cheap fix . I'd love to see some pics Ed .
  • Robert O'Connor_12
    Robert O'Connor_12 Member Posts: 728
    WM EG-55

    It takes a big man to admit he's wrong, and an even bigger man to make it right. My hat is off to Ed Wallace!




    Robert O'Connor/NJ

    Let this thread die.........
This discussion has been closed.