Radiant Heated Banquet Hall???

Weezbo

this year you designe for a dance hall and next year your back to check out operations and see the new Pizza parlor,next to the one room closet travel agent,new ice cream parlor,and wash shop and hear how this is not that a whole bunch.... radiant ceilings with some "pre arranged zones" and serious air handeling devisoids with a dash of co2 controls and perhaps radiant cooling might find a place in your inital designe.

Ragu

Opinions Sought

I've been asked to quote Heating/Cooling/DHW for a 2 story commercial building, 120'x60'. Ground floor is poured and is laid out for a dance studio, ice cream parlor, bakery, offices and mechanical room. Slab is in place (no radiant).

Second floor is steel decked and is proposed for a banquet hall and commercial kitchen. Fire Marshall has ball-parked capacity of 500-600 people. Owners have requested a 3 inch radiant slab with sprayed foam insulation on underside of steel decking. I'm waiting for prints.

At the present time, I see potentially severe overheating/underheating problems with this space, if it were heated with radiant. Any comments??? Thanks.

hydronicsmike

Ragu...

...seevral Control Strategies are available. If you like to discuss, please call me at 250-545-7749, Ext. 214.

you can also get a bit of an idea by researching the new tN4 Control System at www.tekmarcontrols.com.

Regards,

Mike

hr

Talk to Geoff

McDonell. He hangs around here and has commercial radiant knowledge. Check out this article he had in PM Engineer mag

http://www.pmengineer.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2732,135227,00.html

The issue I see is an empty warm floor all of a sudden gets a large occupancy load, and related BTU emitters and the slab cannot ramp down quick enough to prevent over heating.

I'll bet Geoff or Robert Bean at www.healthyheat.com could help.

hot rod

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hydronicsmike

could be dealt with what we call....

..."Radiant Baseloading" available with 2-stage heat.

Jed_2

Radiant Baseloading

Mike, i want to understand "baseloading" better. Can you elaborate?

jed

Ragu

You Guys Are Cool!

Mike, I'll call you.

HR: RIGHT ON THE MONEY! I envision a wedding in winter. 500 people show up to eat and dance and then the sweat starts pouring. Maybe floor drains on the dance floor? Joke.

Research needed.

hr

The other issue with commercial

is when they start moving walls or change the useage. I've looked at strip malls before, but on week they are a dining area, next year a gift shop, then storage, etc.

Too much of a moving target to get zoning and controls sorts out.

Most commercial space, even small ones, need some air exchange, combined with cooling loads it sure matches up to a nice forced air system. perhaps some floor warming around the perimeter?

I did a building for a mechanical engineering firm a few years back. They insisted on only a 6 foot perimeter band of radiant. This is where all the desks were located. I put the radiant zone on a reset control and they did an interface with the control system for the air handlers. They seem very happy with the performance, I was skeptical at first.

If they're happy, and comfortable, I'm happy

hot rod

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Mike T., Swampeast MO

Here goes with the "imagineering" again...

I would imagine a banquet hall to be a very good candidate for radiant heating. Having eaten in many, I know that comfort issues are frequently a problem.

Never forget that radiant heating is about controlling heat loss from bodies--not about heating air.

As long as you've given the system sufficient time to achieve thermal equalibrium (e.g. not cranked it a few hours before an event), the objects in the room should be at a good temperature. If the space is allowed to equalize at a rather low air temperature (say 64 or so) there shouldn't be a problem with overheating of the slab/walls/tables over a short period of time.

What will overheat however is the air. That's where ventilation will be key. Once you get your big occupancy load, your ventilation system (not the radiant heating system) should take over to maintain comfort.

Manipulate both the quantity and tempering of FRESH air and most diners will remain in perfect comfort. Maintain a sufficient quantity and tempering at all times to prevent "closeness". If the indoor air tries to overheat, temper less and/or admit more FRESH air. Am quite certain that appropriate controllers exist and that cost will be reasonable.

Again--imagine the radiant heat as the "base heat" and the FRESH-AIR ventilation as the heat to maintain comfort.

Ceiling height will greatly affect both the location of fresh air intakes/exhausts and the allowable air velocity. Many good references new and old.

hydronicsmike

Radiant Baseloading...

...although the software algorithm is much more comprehensive and elaborate, in brief and basics, it allows for a setable amount of radiant slab heat operation, while the actual air temperature is maintained with the 2nd stage of heat.

In other words, it puts enough heat into the slab to allow customers to experience the comfort of radiant floor heating, but the actual air temperature is actually controlled via 2nd stage (which is usually a much faster reacting heat emitter such as a fan coil or radiator) of heat.

This feature was specifically designed for areas with a lot of heat gain and radiant floor. Heat gains could be caused through solar or people in this case. Since the radiant slab in a high mass application is so slow responding, using it less minimizes the temperature swings.

I hope this makes sense. If it doesn't quite yet, please call me at the office or 250-878-3201 at any time. I may be able to do better verbally English, again, is not my first and strongest language.

Enjoy the weekend fellows...

Mike

Ragu

I See...

I envision the floor (or at least the perimeter) at a slow idle on a reset curve. Air handlers on stage two. Fresh air to be critical. Controls critical. Got some real thinking and talking to do. Thanks.

Tim Doran

Base and trim loads

We do lots of these type of applications and usually design the floor to handle the base load (full load - output of max number of occupants) and then use the ventilation system to trim the load based on the actual occupant load, weather, etc. Radiant cooling can also be considered using the same concepts. Give us a call if you would like some help. 800-321-4739 ask for tech services.

Tim D.

Kal Row

i aggree with mike go with tN4...

and don’t cheap out on sensors, every slab, area, air handler coil and plenum should have one

also as radiant is typically slow moving and will cause overshoot problems even with the best of controls - you need a way to dump the heat from the floor -

people give off radian heat also, and a hall that is comfortable at the start of an affair before most of the guests arrive, will be stifling hot as soon as they do

my idea is to pump the floor water to the, “over the door” air curtain handlers to dump the heat when the hall starts to fill – it’s your first stage cooling in the hall area, the tn4 stat can auto switch to it, and in the summer, you can use a liquid chiller to cool the floor to 65-70f (you cant imagine how much that helps – just stand next any cold surface like a freezer door in a hot kitchen if you don’t believe it) and you can still run the return water from the floor to the air curtains – as you don’t want the air curtains to run to cold, because they will rain on humid days – the 75f slab return water running through the air curtain on a hot and humid day is perfect – the air curtain blocks the outside air, but wont cause it to condense too much, nor will it impart a lot of heat to the inside air

GMcD

Radiant banquet hall

I'm on holidays right now, but checking in from time to time- yes, another wall addict....

This sounds like an ideal radiant heating/radiant cooling system application. Use the radiant for the "steady state" heat losses/heat gains of the space, and the air system will provide the supplemental heating and cooling based on occupancy. People=ventilation, and this is a "ventilation dominated" application. Set up the controls for the radiant slab to provide seasonal reset starting from say 75F in the winter, and dropping to 62F in the summer, and use the air system for the trim/peak loads and the dehumidification in the summer. Nobody in the hall? No air on, just run the radiant as a constant flow/variable temperature system through the year, small energy input to maintain room conditions.

Going to go molest cutthroats tomorrow at the Oldman/Livingston River system....