Forgive me wallies, for I have sinned!

Ron Schroeder

I can color by number too!!

Dave Yates (PAH)

I think I'm beginning to love heat pumps!

Installed a Fujitsu 21-SEER mini-split inverter heat pump today. The instructions indicate care must be exercised when choosing a location for the outdoor unit - as as to not disburb the neighbors because of noise.

The owner had to get down on his knees and place his head up to the condenser fan to even hear it running(G). Library-quiet operation - both inside and out.

Works like a champ! Inverter technology rocks. We've been installing Mitsubishi Inverter units & this was our first Fuji unit.

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Steamhead (in transit)

Take a deep breath, Gramps

even a high-quality heat pump cannot equal hydronics in the winter.

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Josh_10

Well mabe not, I install alot of air source heat pumps with radiant floor heating instead of or with a boiler. We'll all be doing it soon.

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Training

Is this one of those pre-charged puppies that doesn't take any special training or equipment to install?

Josh_10

Not the one I install. Is use a Simple Comfort chiller which is basically a heat exchanger that the heat pumps sits on. You still have to braze the lines between the two but the Linesets are only 2 feet long and then you run regular copper inside the house. I generally try and sell a boiler backup with the unit. The great thing though is that you can use any type of heat pump. Even the 21 SEER Grandpa is talking about.

P.S. Grandpa I heard that Lennox has a 21 SEER the other day at the hardware store. Is that true?

Dave Yates (PAH)

Well.........

That's a loaded question!

It's an Inverter unit, so those who want to take off the cover and test had better know what the **** is doing what with which voltages and current or they're likely to find it's their last service call before speaking with St. Peter!

It did come with the 410A charge "built in", but only for a 50' line set. The instructions left out a lot of things needed knowledge-wise, which indicates the mfgr expects the installer has a basic knowledge of heat pump / A/C / and electrical systems.

Steamhead, the Inverter technology eliminates the need for resistance back-up heating in cold weather. Air delivery temps are warmer than traditional heat pumps and the variable speed Inverter technology grants indoor/outdoor reset to the comfort issues and energy consumption is miserly. Imagine a compressor running that can't be heard - and that's without it having a sound-deadening housing! At low Btu outputs, they're that quiet you could run an Inverter condenser in a library without disturbing the librarian!

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Kevin_in_Denver_2

Dump that huge old rusty boiler!

I think I just figured out how to improve the efficiency of the boiler systems in my 20 unit apartment buildings...tear them out, put these in, and let the tenants pay for their own heat. I think I can learn to live without all those thumping noises.

An air-to-air heat pump that can deliver heat at zero F ambient is the holy grail. WOW

ME, let's get Financial Energy Management to loan me the money, and let's get going.

Another plus... gaining 200 NRSF that doesn't have a huge hole to the outside and all the attendant dust and grime.

Any caveats?

Josh_10

Keving air to water with radiant floor heating will give you an extra 20-30 percent better than air to air.

Wayne_17

Heat Pump

Do you have a link for this product >

Dave Yates (PAH)

Here's two

http://www.mrslim.com/Products/subCategory.asp?ProductCategoryID=24&ProductSubCategoryID=140

http://www.fujitsugeneral.co.nz/heat-pumps.html

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Kevin_in_Denver_2

better link for Fujitsu Heat pump

http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/wallmounted.htm

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Lowest first cost wins

I'm sure you're right, but this is one of those applications where first cost is WAY more important than life cycle cost, or even noise and comfort, since it's not for my own home.

But it "sounds" like these are by far the quietest units ever introduced

Kevin_in_Denver_2

EZ installation

Who needs a heating guy?
Check out these very simple installation procedures:

Dave Yates (PAH)

Located

in Vermont??? Funny that they don't elaborate on "evacuate".

While the wiring is a bit easier given the fact that you don't have any low-voltage multi-colored wires to connect, the fact the the inter-connecting wiring is three-phase renders this equipment more dangerous for a DIY application. In addition, as I mentioned previously, the mfgr's instructions leave out a great deal only a seasoned veteran of the trades would know.

But, the Internet makes available anything to anybody without discriminating by skill sets or intelligence.

There's also the multitude of voltages under the hood to consider.

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Christian Egli_2

The future is always a step ahead of us

Can't go wrong with a heat pump, it is a vapor cycle after all, and we all love vapor cycles, we all love phase change, it is the easiest way to move heat in bulk, and... it's what the good steam boiler does too... so we're cool.

I think it is a great plan to add a heat pump mode into any system, simply because it costs relatively nothing within an AC system. That's one reason, it is a permanent one time low cost up-front decision. Even if you'll never use the heat-pump, you'll have some redundancy.

There is another reason that is way more twisted.

Currently natural gas costs are way up, while electric costs are still held down by slow public utilities rate revision cycles. At this time, in my market, electricity costs just a little more than gas, naturally no one cares anymore about how much power they burn because they're only interested in kicking their non-electric heat. How long will that last?

Remember just 5, 10 years ago? Natural gas was abnormally cheap, electricity commanded a ten times higher price on a per BTU unit and everyone was desperately installing load shedding control in order the muzzle electric usage of guzzling refrigerant compressors. Absorption and gas engine driven cooling was the rage.

Natural gas was so cheap relative to oil even, that many industrial plants abandoned their solid fuel and oil fueled boilers and replaced one central heating system with a colony of gas fired radiant burners throughout the plant. Flue-less radiant burners, remember? Maintaining a whole steam system just to burn easy-to-use natural gas seemed like overcomplicating one's vibe. Clue-less.

And life goes on, and how times have changed. Now we're courting the duct-less beauties over the old beast of the sheet metal piped system.

Upset at gas prices, at electric prices? Just flick a switch, burn oil, burn coal (those who can today are the big winners in this market), burn waste even. A central heating and cooling system makes the adaptation to any market conditions real easy - even on a small residential scale.

Those still trying to control their colony of radiant gas burners are fighting a massive rebellion of faulty burners. They find themselves longing for the time when the job only involved maintaining docile steam traps. Maintaining an air fleet of hanging gas furnaces is about just as frustrating. And because history repeats itself, restarting the old central boiler is now making sense again. Not just for simple operation, but for the fuel flexibility you get. Just think also of how convenient it is to monitor tight combustion efficiency from within one boiler room - that's worth a lot of fuel savings.

How will things look in a few years from now? I don't know, but I want to have the flexibility to adapt, quickly and easily.

We'll still have window units, we'll still have split units. I wouldn't count on electric rates to keep heat pump heating attractive, and certainly not with electric supplemental heat. And speaking for my cold wintered Midwest climate, you only need a small blizzard of sorts to make you regret counting only on a heat pump for heat and wipe away any long term energy savings. If you're retrofitting an existing system, don't get pinned into a corner by abandoning something that lost its attractiveness perhaps only temporarily.

It's like betting at races, fun, but you don't know which horse will sadly break it's leg next. Hedge, don't be left heat-less.

***

Boy, this sure sounded like a piece of moral advice. But it's Sunday... Anyway, thanks for reading and I hope I make sense. The new technology all packed up into those mini split units is truly fascinating, that's all I really wanted to say. Have I sinned?

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Evacuate

You're right, I'll still need a trained pro to evacuate. No charging at least.

Dave Yates (PAH)

yes & no

The factory 410A charge is for a 50' line set. Some adjustment will be required below that number and additional refrigerant is to be added if you exceed that length. The real fun will come once any leaks develop and the service tech is called to check the system charge.

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Steamhead (in transit)

Kevin, I'm not sure what the laws are there

but in Baltimore, as I understand it, landlords are legally obligated to provide working heat systems but not A/C. You don't want the maintenance headaches that would come with providing A/C systems- especially those located in apartments where tenants can tamper with them. It's easy to keep the boiler room locked.

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Kevin_in_Denver_2

A/C and tenants

The climate here is just hot enough that the market requires that the tenants have A/C. Therefore, I provide either a through the wall or window unit in all my rental dwellings. The electrical usage is individually metered and paid by the tenant.

The heat is from a natural gas boiler, but I'd have to add some equipment in order to meter individually.