Euro vs US voltage

Christian Egli_2

As discongruous the US power seems in regards to the rest of the world, it is as though someone figured out all the loopholes needed to make the world connect. Interestingly this situation opens the US grid to the easy plugging in of 50 cycle stuff, whereas the opposite is messier. Europeans cannot so easily use all of our stuff, and that's bad for manufacturing exports. For instance, all our 110V equipment can only be used overseas through the cumbersome use of transformers.

Here is some math that seems to be applied like a giant store wide sale, but it is not, it is related to the motor speed, it's power, and bump up in voltage to keep the motor supplied correctly.

50 Hz + 20% = 60 Hz

220 V + 20% = 260 V

380 V + 20% = 460 V

Next, our utilities supply us power at a very accurate frequency, it might slip, daily, just a fraction of a digit but that's it. This sets the speed at which all things turn. In contrast, voltage is expected to come within a range of +/- 10% and the utility prefers sticking to the high side.

If you live at the end of the power line, on an overloaded substation, chances are your voltages will be sloughing on the low side. Things such as light bulbs will have longer lives (no big deal) but motors, because they become underfed, will overheat and burn (that's worth lots of complaints). With voltage remaining high, your motor would be fine (no complaints) and light bulbs and resistance loads would burn out faster (again no big deal).

Here is how our world is powered, here in southwest Ohio. I'd be curious to know what you have.

Standard home:

Single phase, 220V (nominal) actually provided around 240 - 250V.
Common on central tap giving two half branches at 110V (nominal) or 120 V.
All 60 Hz.

This arrangement is a survival of Edison scratching his head to save on copper wires that with DC power had to be huge. The common saved one quarter of the copper cost (AC in turn would save a lot more and won the general acceptance). I believe initial voltage was 100 V nominal and steadily bumped up.

Standard commercial:

This double setup is typical of older factories:

Single phase, 220V (nominal) actually provided around 240 - 250V.
Common on central tap giving two half branches at 110V (nominal) or 120 V.
All 60 Hz.

Three phase, 220V between phase.
With delta connection, no neutral (this it the typical older setup here).
If with wye connection, the neutral produces three times 127V.
All 60 Hz.

This setup is typical of downtown:

Three phase, 208V between phase.
With wye connection, the neutral produces three times 120V.

This last setup is typical of new factories:

Three phase, 480V between phase.
With wye connection, the neutral produces three times 277V.
The plant has to transform its own 110V.

Here is what Europe does for homes and businesses:

Three phase, 380V between phase.
Always with wye connection, the neutral produces three times 220V.
All at 50 Hz.

Factor in the 20% change needed for the frequency change, factor in the +/-10% tolerance and a single phase motor that was supposed to run on 220/50 will be fine on our 240/60. Even light bulbs and such can handle the difference. For three phase motors on 380/50, our equivalent is 480/60 (see why new factories go with this selection and note that a 380/50 motor will burn up on only 380/60), the only trouble here is the control circuitry which needs the 220V of the 380/220/50 setup and will not do with the 277V of our 480/277/60, but controls are cheaper to switch over than motors are. Most new machines come with these motors and most older 220V machines have motors that more often than not can be powered with 440V as well (even in really old stuff, and the old 440 should be close enough to our bumped up 480, sometimes pulleys have to be changed to adjust for power fitting) Nothing here is new.

Color TV sets, espresso coffee makers and (single phase) automatic washing machines imported from Europe run just fine off the stuff that comes out of our clothe dryer plug. Of course, you need to check your equipment, your warranties, and especially your fuse protection and the thermal protection that comes inside the motor starter box, the 20% applies here as well. 220V wall plugs in small amperage are available in this country and I've never had a problem doing any of this.

Now about the Alpha pump, I am guessing it is a stepper motor, with permanent magnets, the type that moves robotic arms and CNC equipment and it must be powered like a computer power unit, which, like most, can take whatever you give them. Your pump has the green light that will tell you if all is ok.

Fascinating, this pump makes the operation of a hot water system ever so much inch itself towards what the earliest steam system already did.

Did this help? Of the 26 languages is English at least one of them?

hr

If I have

a Euro circ that is built for 230V 50 cycle, can this be run on 240V 60 cycle.

Seem the Euro voltage is one leg at 230V a neutral and a ground. Could I apply two 120 V legs to this circ to operate it or would I need a step up transformer like the one Viessmann supplies with the Vitodens?
Thanks for any enlightment

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

jim lockard

i'm thinkig

HR that you would want to use a booster transformer. But not really sure. Best Wishes J.Lockard

Brad White_82

Going the other way

If you have a 60 Hz. motor and run it on 50 Hz. power you lose about 17% of RPM, drop your voltage and increase your amperage a similar amount. This is a generally accepted condition. What it does do is replicate the motor being run on a drive at 50 Hz. (obviously). I never thought about reversing the situation but if all things hold equally, your motor would run faster by 20% and I imagine your amperage draw might drop and your voltage may increase.

This is just a guess, I am not an electrical engineer.

Personally I would not do it. It may work for a short time but I see a burn out in your future. I would install a Variac (a few hundred dollars) which may well exceed the cost of an appropriate pump. But if you DO do this, (use the 50 Hz. motor on 60 Hz. power) I would love to hear about what happened. But I would rather YOU tell us, not the local papers, OK?

Been enough electrical accidents this week.

hr

I had one of the early MZ boilers

that was Euro voltage 230V 50 cycle. I connected it with two 120 v legs, one leg on the L terminal and one on the N terminal, and the pump and inducer fan ran but I could never get the Honeywell spark ignition module to work. It never did light off.

I'm anxious to start playing with this Alpha circ, but I want to make sure I don't fry the thing. Grundfos tells me the 50 cycle is not an issue. Somehow this circ is actually a DC motor so the on board electronics must change the input ac to dc anyways. Possibly it sorts out the single leg 230V or two 120V legs?

The manual that ships with this is printed in 26 languages. Must be a lot of these circs being used in a lot of places


I will use care, thanks for the reminder Brad. Sorry about your friend. I lived in that canyon for a few years in the mid 70's. Drove by that small hydro-electric plant 1000 times.
hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Robert O'Connor

I looked

into cycle converters . I too wanted a Euro goodie ( condensing oil boiler) . $1000 - $1500 and you loose about 15% electrical efficiency.

Keep us posted.

All the best

Robert

Maine

Brad White_82

Hot Rod-

> that was Euro voltage 230V 50 cycle. I connected

> it with two 120 v legs, one leg on the L terminal

> and one on the N terminal, and the pump and

> inducer fan ran but I could never get the

> Honeywell spark ignition module to work. It never

> did light off.

>

> I'm anxious to start playing

> with this Alpha circ, but I want to make sure I

> don't fry the thing. Grundfos tells me the 50

> cycle is not an issue. Somehow this circ is

> actually a DC motor so the on board electronics

> must change the input ac to dc anyways. Possibly

> it sorts out the single leg 230V or two 120V

> legs?

>

> The manual that ships with this is

> printed in 26 languages. Must be a lot of these

> circs being used in a lot of places

>

> I

> will use care, thanks for the reminder Brad.

> Sorry about your friend. I lived in that canyon

> for a few years in the mid 70's. Drove by that

> small hydro-electric plant 1000 times. hot

> rod

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 144&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

Brad White_82

Hot Rod- You have an ALPHA??

How did you score that (besides being Hot Rod?

I suppose if Grundfos says "OK" it must be. The bugger seems sophisticated enough and adaptable enough for the wide range of export. As you said it is a DC motor.

Thanks for the kind words. Bill Lennon will be missed; his memorial service is happening right now at the Albion Grill. Small world in that you knew the place (Whitmore Oxygen hydro-electric power plant at the mouth of Little Cottonwood Canyon). Maybe I am too sensitized in the moment; he knew what he was doing and still... Of course I know you will be careful.

Constantin

I guess it depends on what's happening inside...

... if they're converting straight to DC, the Hz make less of a difference. So, if the engineers say it's OK, it'd simply try ot out.

I am very impressed with the SQE lines of pumps, maybe they have some of the same inverter technology inside the Alpha...

Weezbo

hr. i pumped up some 208 3 pahse

to a swedish tanning bed salon instead of 220 and it worked for years.... i did not have 240 available.

on a car wash machine....every voltage Known to mankind was pumped into it . had to build a Wheatstone bridge and some other unavailable parts worked like a top....

power from 60 down to 50 i think is an issue sort of browns it a bit....

from 50 up to 60 sorta jazzes it a bit....

then theres adaRonk.......

good deal *~/:) may it purr lika kitten

Robert O'Connor

SQE

I'm putting one in my new well. I'm pretty excited about it. The driller says he can support it . Anything I should know about it Constantin?

Also the few engineers I talked with gave the same advice regarding hz and DC voltage. The Swiss engineer that developed the boiler I wanted to play with was emphatic with me not to do it. The first electrical stop in that boiler is to convert ac to dc.

All the best

Robert

ME

Ron Schroeder

Unfortunatly It is often a guess as to if a device will operate on the wrong frequency. If it is a true AC motor, the higher frequency will increase inductive reactance which will lower current but the eddy current losses will increase too increasing current. It is just a guess which effect will be stronger. Of course the rpm will increase but I have seen some 50Hz motors run better and cooler on 60Hz but others overheat.

The Alpha will probably work fine on either 50 or 60Hz since it is really a brushless DC motor. You can get a 120:240 volt step up transformer from McMaster-Carr, Grainger or most electrical supply houses if you want to run it directly off of 120 volts. A 50 or 100 watt transformer should be fine.

Constantin

I had a good time...

... trying to find a manual online so I could find out more about commissioning the thing. Because ours is going to be horizontal in a cistern, it's got the optional flow kit to minimize debris.

The technology inside the SQE is nifty, to say the least. I elected not to get the Smartflo controller package just yet... want to see if it will be necessary... but for your purposes, I would. Why not take advantage of variable-speed drives to maintain constant pressure no matter what is going on in the house?

It's a nifty package, the way the controller communicates with the pump logic over the power wires, no additional wiring needed. I could have saved $50 by going with the dumber SQ line, but hedged just in case our sprinkler system needs a more constant pressure than I think it does.

hr

Thanks to all

for the info. I'll give it a go with 2- 120V lines.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"