Test EVERYTHING! (Steamhead)

Kal Row

they have taken away every oil customer, because if they started testing now, they would probably have to disconnet such a large portion of their customer base - that everyone would switch back to oil stat - so they are waiting until the oil heat industry is mostly dead - then they will go out and test, in order to make service money

ps i think every fire house has a co tester and lots would be happy to test for you, a friend in south NJ which is all volunteer (dont want to name names) had them do it , he was going to buy a codo complex with lots of appliences, needless to say, he got quite a discount after the fire dpt was through - talk about a tough negotiating tactic...

Steamhead

Went to hook up a gas stove this morning

for a regular customer. Brand-new, very nice GE slide-in model, a warranty replacement for another one that had a lot of problems. The job was uneventful until I fired up the Testo.....

Both the oven and broiler burners were producing over 1500 PPM CO! Even after a short "burn-in" period. A couple adjustments brought both down to 50 PPM.

Moral of the story: Even a brand-new, fresh-from-the-factory unit can be out of adjustment. Those of you who don't have a digital analyzer need to seriously consider what your lack of proper equipment can lead to.

If you don't test, you're GUESSING!

BTW... if whoever designed that stove so you have to remove the oven door to get at the burner is reading this, please check yourself into rehab.......

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Mark Hunt_2

Good catch Steamhead!


And I agree 100% about the designers of stoves and ovens.

Dante's Inferno comes to mind, perhaps a special place in hell for some of these guys???

Mark H

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Steve Ebels_3

You are so right

There needs to be a very special place for the designers of all types of home appliances. After working on some of these, especially cooking appliances, a week with Sadaam's best wouldn't be enough punishment for these "engineers".

I think the fate that would be most appropriate would be that they have to actually work on their own designs in customers homes. Now THAT would probably affect some changes!

Good catch on the CO Steamhead! Was there anything that you noticed that made you test it or did all appear normal?

gerry gill

very well done ,

i hope the custmer realizes you just save their life..great job..

BillW@honeywell

When I got my new range...

a couple years ago, there were bright red warning cards attatched to the top burners warning of a potential CO danger if the "high-speed" burners were used with a wok or similar pans. Nary a word about the oven. I'm gonna borrow somebody's CO tester asap!

leo g_13

Don't forget guys

but the engineers are usually over ruled by the "design consultants" on how the final product goes together ("oh we just can't have that ugly access panel for that ugly thingy-a-magingy RIGHT THERE!).

Leo G

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Steamhead

I test them all

no matter what the flame looks like. If I'm not working on the stove I still offer to test, especially if it's running and I smell aldehydes (sweet, sharp, stuffy smell resembling the odor included with natural gas) from it. Remember that stoves are not usually vented to the outside, so any CO produced stays in the building.

For the record, on this one you couldn't see the flame on the oven burner at all without removing the oven floor and the flame spreader. The broiler burner is in the top of the oven, and its flame was nice and blue- and impinging on its flame spreader, which no doubt caused the high CO. The cure in both cases was to open the air shutters all the way, which shortened the flame length enough to cure the impingement. When doing this make sure the flame does not lift off the burner.

Realize that the air to an oven burner enters the burner area thru one or more holes or slots. So the total amount of available air is limited. By opening the air shutter you are simply changing the distribution of the available air- sending more into the burner tube with the gas as primary air, instead of still being outside the burner as secondary air.

It's important to test a stove fully assembled, or at least with all shields, spreaders and baffles in place. AGA does not mandate this, and never has, which is one reason we get such high CO from stoves. When testing top burners, fill a pan with cold water and place it on the burner first. The flame should NOT impinge on the pan- if it does you'll certainly get high CO.

Bill, you have the right idea. Interestingly enough, the installation instructions for this stove said to check and make sure the flame was blue, with no yellow in it. I can picture a lawyer tearing that apart in a wrongful-death lawsuit. When will appliance makers and code officials wake up and require proper testing?

The worst CO I've ever seen was from stoves. When I got my Testo, the first thing I tested was my stove. The oven was over 1100 PPM- now it's under 20.

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Scott Kneeland

testing a gas stove

I have installed several for a local propane company. I'm not afraid te sound stupid but how did you test it? did you hold the wand over the burners? This interest me I'm always up to learn.

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Christian Egli

Foolproof Coq-au-vin in the oven and CO

The toxic CO first puts the chicken safely asleep before the heat cooks it.

I am watching TV at this very moment. There is the chef Julia Child preparing coq au vin chicken. She goes about it quite differently, she uses a huge cleaver...

See, your engineered GE appliance and its CO emission is much more humane. What if the coq au vin did come back out of the oven to chase you around the kitchen? I bet you did not test for that.

The impossible-to-open panel is the last ditch effort to keep the mad chicken inside the oven, should there not be sufficient CO to knock everbody out.

They tought of everything.

Hmmm.

Brilliant post!

Steamhead

Not a stupid question at all, Scott

From my earlier post:

"When testing top burners, fill a pan with cold water and place it on the burner first. The flame should NOT impinge on the pan- if it does you'll certainly get high CO."

What you're doing here is testing under conditions of actual use. This is what AGA has let manufacturers avoid doing. No one uses a stove by running the burner with no pan on it. A pan big enough to cover the burner flame on high setting provides maximum opportunity for impingement. I generally hold the probe of the analyzer so it almost touches the bottom of the pan, near the edge. This is where I have found you will get the highest CO readings. Note- if anyone reading this has a better way, I'm listening....

Anyway, if you get high CO, I would first open the air shutter as wide as possible without making the flame lift off. If you still get high CO, try reducing the maximum flame height. I've found it's best to do the tops after doing the oven, since the flames on the tops will lift off more easily if the air supply to them is warmed by heat from the oven.

The oven, and broiler burner if it is separate from the main oven burner, is tested with the probe in the exhaust duct. If the oven needs cleaning, you may not get as low a CO reading as you'd like. In this case I generally get it as low as I can, tell the owner to break out the Easy-Off or whatever, then try again when the oven is clean.

Start your test the moment the burner lights on a cold start. You'll see the CO peaking, then it should drop rapidly. On a stove, the ANSI/AGA maximum is 800 PPM. That's way too high. Try to get the running levels to 50 PPM or less. A portable fan is handy for cooling down an oven between tests.

Where did I learn all this? From Tim McElwain's "Fundamentals of Gas" training manual, and from conversations with the master himself (don't blush, Tim- you really are that good). I haven't been to his training center in Rhode Island yet but will do so the first chance I get- looking at his all-week session starting Sept. 12. Maybe I'll see you there. In the meantime, get the manual if you haven't already. It has some more specific info than in this post. Tim's e-mail is gastc@cox.net .

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Steamhead

ROFLMAO!!!!!

that was good!

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Rick Rodriguez_2

Any recomendations on a good CO tester

Rick

Mark Hunt_2

Bacharach Fyrite-pro 120 or 125


Either of these is an excellent choice.

Mark H

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Steamhead

There are several good ones out there

I have a pair of Testo 325-1 units. Testo's latest one is the 330, which I've heard good things about. Mark likes his Bacharachs and so do many other Wallsters. There are other brands but I can't remember their names now. Check with your local suppliers to see what they handle. You want a unit that can handle any type of oil or gas, and that will test for CO.

Be aware that most of these units will need periodic recalibration, sensor replacement etc. which will involve sending the unit to the factory service center. That's why I bought two- so I'll never be without one.

www.testo.com

www.bacharach.com

Mad Dog_2

Yup, its amazing, FRanh how many contractors

I know that STILL won't invest in one. BTW, what did you do to bring it down? MD

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Steamhead

Wasn't hard

From earlier post-

"The cure in both cases was to open the air shutters all the way, which shortened the flame length enough to cure the impingement. When doing this make sure the flame does not lift off the burner."

"Realize that the air to an oven burner enters the burner area thru one or more holes or slots. So the total amount of available air is limited. By opening the air shutter you are simply changing the distribution of the available air- sending more into the burner tube with the gas as primary air, instead of still being outside the burner as secondary air."

Not quite the same situation as your typical atmospheric gas boiler burners. On most of these boilers the air shutters are outside the boiler jacket, so resetting them does not change the amount of secondary air, and the results you get on the analyzer after adjusting the shutters will not be the same on an oven as on a boiler.

Constantin

Allow me to quibble...

Having helped bring several high-end home appliance families to market, I can assure you that the issue is not just with the engineers... marketing and industrial "design" can do more to thwart the best designs than you can imagine. Said designers dictate what the look of an appliance will be, then the engineers get to work around that. Frequently, that means that things are inaccessible that shouldn't be.

Unfortunately, the dream of cross-functional teams that design products around all aspects of the business (i.e. look, feel, repair, manufacturing, etc.) are a pipe dream in most companies due to political reasons. All too often, designs are simply thrown over the wall to manufacturing before all aspects of the design can be considered. This then leads to appliances that are more expensive to manufacture (and usually harder to service) than if manufacturing had been allowed to weigh in with a DFMA analysis, etc.

I have also taken apart my fair share of home appliances in DoE work. Interestingly, commodity appliances like top-loading washing machines compete on access/service friendliness. For the most part, they are easy to service though some companies could spend a few more pennies and use sharp dies when cutting and forming sheetmetal so that their appliances don't slice and dice installers/service folk.

Lastly, Steve, all joking aside, I would be careful about wishing upon anyone to be tortured by henchmen, whether the Gestapo, Saddam, or the US kind. Such treatment seems a bit over the top compared to the "crime" of a unit that is not well designed. Imagine if every mistake you made had the same consequences.

Rudy

Hey Bill

Email me your mailing address and I'll get a loaner test instrument in the mail, ya just gotta let us know what you find!!
Rudy
rudyo2@verizon.net

Rudy

Hey Bill

Email me your mailing address and I'll get a loaner test instrument in the mail, ya just gotta let us know what you find!!
Rudy
rudyo2@verizon.net

Steve Ebels_3

Easy there..............

I would think you'd recognize a little hyperbole from a country hick like me when you see it. (G)

BTW, I thought I had made a mistake a couple years ago but my wife told me I was wrong. Or something like that.


In using the term "engineers" I am using a broad brush that would encompass all who have input as to how a product is screwed together. This would include legal engineers (liability and product lawyers) Design engineers (Marketing types who don't know and don't care as long as it looks good) and the actual CAD guys that layout the product (engineer engineers). Each of those groups should be made to turn wrenchs in the field for a year before they ever actually build a product IMHO.

PS: Saddam's best pale in comparison to what one of the other guys suggested.

Constantin

I apologize...

... I didn't mean to come down hard on you, just tried to raise your awareness of what you typed. Potential customers at heatinghelp (who may or may not be engineers) could be put off by that remark, and put off even worse by the remarks you allude to from others. After all, there are a significant number of engineers on this board, either active or lurking. Insulting professions doesn't get us anywhere but a shouting match...

That said, I totally agree that many "engineers" that come out of engineering school have no business designing parts, etc. Instead, they should be sent to the assembly lines, installation crews, maintenance squads, etc. for a year (in rotation) to truely understand what it means to use whatever product they're going to be designing/making/outsourcing. Only then would they have the insights required to understand the implications of what happens when they put ink to paper or click a few lines in SolidWorks/AutoCAD/whatever.

Back when I was a student, the manufacturing engineers had to take a semester-long shop class and make a number of items to tight tolerances. It taught us loads about dimensioning, reinforced the need for good practices re: DFMA, and highlighted the processes a part may go through before reaching the customer. It also made us respect the people on the plant floor a great deal because it became very apparent that they (usually) knew a heck of a lot more about the production processes than we could ever hope to.

Unknown

Steamhead you did great, good catch

it reminds me of a true story about CO I often use when teaching my classes.

A customer called her oil burner service company and complained that she was getting headaches and was told that it could be her heating system. She had a oil forced warm air furnace and a oil water heater. The oil service company came and tested and tuned both the furnace and water heater. Everything tested fine. Two days later the lady and two of her children were rushed to the hospital - cause the gas oven which was making CO over 2500 PPM. When the oil guy was confronted with this he replied, "it is not my job to test gas ovens." In the final analysis we should all be testing everything in the house that burns. I am a gas man but I have shut off many an oil burner and told them to call the oil man.

I have found another recent dangerous problem to look out for is gas fired emergency generators which are outside and when either doing test firing (some do this automatically) the air intake for the direct vent equipment pulls in exhaust from the generator and shuts the heating equipment down. The worst one recently however was the intake for the HRV was pulling in exhaust fumes from the generator. The fortunate thing was they had a CO detector which alarmed.

Even if you do not want to get into adjusting non heating and water heating appliances they still should be tested. If found to be operating with high CO at least leave them off and alert the customer to get a repair man in to service them.

Steamhead

The oil man

may have just been following his boss's orders, or had an old-style kit that wouldn't test gas. But when he determined that the furnasty and water heater were OK, he should have questioned her further and/or had her get the stove, gas dryer (if present) and anything else checked too.

Tim, I wonder if that house had just gotten new windows, weatherstipping, insulation or anything else that had reduced air infiltration? Excessive infiltration will dilute CO to some extent, but when a house is tightened up........

Kal Row

i have one of those (jgs968...)...

and the ge manual mentions CO 3 times, - you would think that they would set it right - mine was ok though

Unknown

This is good info Steamhead

let me just add a couple of things. The adjusting of gas ranges is often very difficult and needs a lot of patience and heating and then cooling and then retesting to be effective. Most range ovens in the test lab are tested with the oven bottom out, not much chance for impingement. By the way do not blame engineers for poor design on these appliances. Many of the designs are forced by the testing standards which are in place. We need to change the standards not the engineers.

Something else to do when you have opened up the air shutters on burners as wide as you can. It is a good idea to place a thermometer in the oven and test for temperature as matched to oven heat control setting. It is also a good idea to advise the customer that because of the adjustments you have made that certain recipies may have to be adjusted for time (shorter) especially any pies or cakes. The reason is with the higher air gas mix the burner flame burns hotter so the cakes and pies will cook faster, believe it or not this is true.

You also want to make sure the oven is firing at correct input. This can be measured by clocking the burner with it set to its highest setting. To speed up clocking run the oven and the furnace or boiler together, then shut of the oven and clock the furnace or boiler alone subtract the difference that will be what the oven is burning. This will also help you to make sure the furnace or boiler is working at full input, kill two birds with one stone.

The last thing I want to mention is "Self Cleaning" ranges. When in the self cleaning mode they can make high levels of CO. This is usually caused by the fact that oven and broiler are out of adjustment to begin with. Remember most self cleaning ranges (gas) clean by getting the temperature in the oven cavity up around 900 degrees. This is accomplished by running broiler first then bringing the oven on to run at the smae time the broiler is running. This is why they have an oven door latching lever for safety, so someone does not open the oven when it is at 900 degrees. They usually lock somewhere around 600 degrees or slightly higher.

And yes even electric self cleaning ranges can make CO when burning off food residue in the oven cavity.

Mad Dog_2

That's great Frank

That usually solves it...I though it might have been more involved. Timmie always taught us that shutters should be all the way open. I wonder what the manufacturer would have to say about it? Probably give you an ambiguous answer. This was a clear case of doing what was right, way to go Frank. Mad Dog

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Steamhead

As long as

the flame is not lifting off the burner, wide open is fine. This gives you a shorter flame length, reducing impingement.

Speaking of boilers, I had more than usual CO on one a while ago, turned out one of the burners wasn't sitting all the way down in its mountings. This was enough to cause impingement.

Unknown

No this was in the days of electronic

testers which the oil man had. There had been no replacements of windows or anything. This particular lady used her oven often and that was the reason the CO poisioning was brought about. In that particualr instance the gas stove was not able to be repaired or adjusted to be able to lower CO. it was replaced and I was the one who set it up for the customer. In addition to my fee I received a chocalate cake ( My favorite). The CO levels that caused the hospital visit thank God did not cause any permanent damage. In fact the daughter just graduated last year with honors.

I do not fault the oil man he just did not know nor had he had any training to take him in that direction. As he said it never entered his mind. He was the one who actually contacted me about this and has been to all of my classes. I tell the story with his permission so as he says "no other oil guy gets caught not knowing."

Oil personnel by the way are my favorite gas students. It is becuase they bring a lot of knowledge of combustion to the table.

Steamhead

Tim, when I see you say

"This is good info Steamhead" I take it as the highest form of compliment. I look forward to your seminars!

Steamhead

That's a bit harder to do

than most people think. Even if standard-setting groups like AGA required testing with all shields, spreaders etc in place (which would help a LOT), there is still the fact that natural gas is not a uniform product in all parts of the country. Specific gravity, BTU content per cubic foot and other things will vary. So there is no alternative to testing.

But in the old days, if someone ordered enough appliances, they would set them up for the gas that was being used in that area. Tim, didn't you once tell me that the gas company you worked for did that?

Unknown

Years ago the range and dryer

companies in order to get the gas company business would factory adjust equipment just for us. It would be set up with the BTU content of our gas and the specific gravity. It would have a tag on the equipment which stated factory adjusted for and the name of our company. This would mean it could be hooked up and used immediately by the gas company with minimum adjustments. Those were the good old days when the gas company did not charge for service.

We even had a girl called the "girl in white" who went out and showed the customer how to use their new gas range or dryer. This was for free. You wonder how the gas industry got such a hold on the heating and water heater business. It started out with what was called white goods. Once that gas pipe was in the house the marketing department was not far behind renting them a water heater for $2.25 a month and a conversion burner for the old coal or oil boiler for $5.25 a month.

We had to do a CO test on every peice of equipment. In those days we used a colormetric ampoule. We would break both ends of and attach it to a aspirator bulb. We started with one squeeze no color change, then three squeezes no change then five. If it did not change color with all those squeezes it was safe. If at any time it started to change color we had a chart we could hold it up to and determine % CO which we then converted to air free CO by using a mathematical formula. It is a lot easier today with electronics.

Mark Hunt_2

Hey Tim


Why don't the gas companies do this anymore?

I remember going to a class YEARS ago that was offered by the local gas company on venting. They showed us pictures that could have been used in horror films. The point was to drive home the importance of proper venting on equipment and what the dangers were when proper venting practices were not followed. One set of photos was taken at a home where the recluse that lived there decided he was wasting too much heat up the chimney. So he disconnected his furnace from chimney and ran the flue pipe into a 6" diffuser he cut into his bedroom wall. 100% efficient system but he only got to use it once. As I mentioned, he was a hermit type and his body was not discovered for several days. I will not describe here what he looked like when the firemen found him.

In my area, the gas company will not touch anything. If they find a problem they lock out the unit and advise the customer to contact the appropriate contractor to fix the problem. Many times this will be the guy that installed the unit to begin with and hasn't a clue about testing much less adjusting anything.

Mark H



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Unknown

Most gas companies today

are only interested in selling gas. They say they are very safety concerned but it is my experience that they are not. They spend very little money on training on the appliance side of the business. Most of their money is spent on the Office of Pipe Line Safety Operator Qualification Programs. Those are directed to the pipeline that delivers the gas not the equipment operation. They also hire many contractors who are strictly installers. They know very little about the actual equipment.

Many gas companies that do service do not test equipment and do not even have test equipment.

There is a very poor training environment surrounding the gas industry as pertains to getting contractors who work for them adequately trained.

I was recently turned down as a training facility by the state of Mass because I do not have a license in Mass. There is no consideration of the quality of what you offer. One recognized training facility in Mass has an ex dispatcher from a gas company as an instructor. He has a license so he is qualified. None of the training faclities in Mass teach combustion testing or CO Protocol, nor do any in RI. The rest of New England is not much better. The one that does fairly well is Connecticut.