Did I waste my Time, and Money...?

Unknown · May 2005

There are free calculators online, I think dan even links one on his site somewhere. Once you know the load for the areas, it's easy to figure out what water temps you need.

If you're doing staple up, I would assume, however, that a water heater cannot provide the temps you probably need. Luckily, this can probably be fixed by adding plates. For a simple system though, you want heavy gauge plates or you'll probably have noise, and they are a bit pricey. If your space can, in fact, be heated by floor heat alone, they will do the trick.

This involves removing the insulation, pulling down the pex, putting up plates, and reinserting the pex into the plates and reinstalling the insulation though. Lot of work.

Or, a heat load may indicate that turning up the water heater to 140 might do the trick.

Or, it may indicate that even with plates, you'll need supplemental.

This is why heat load calcs are very, very important!

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JB_6 · May 2005

Did I waste my time, and money...?

I am a FNG regarding Hydronics. I have laid pex for slabs, done some pex staple up, but never had any formal training, nor any real in depth "on the job" training regarding Hydronics. I have read several of Dan's books. I've heard others state that "hydronics isn't difficult-you just need to get your feet wet. So I jumped in, and put some hydronics into my own house.
Originally built in 1967, an addition of approximately 20 feet by 25 feet was added 5 years later. The addition was one giant room, with a 20 foot by 44 inch wide storage area accessible only from a door around the outside. I chopped the room into a 13 x 20 bedroom, with the remainder being a full bathroom, with laundry, and walk in closet area, creating a "Master Suite". Tile, and 1/4" durock sit on top of the original subfloor. A Direct vent LP appliance heats the bedroom.
I did a staple up job in the tight crawler ( drove me crazier than I already am), creating two loops of wirsbo Aquapex-249 feet, and 232 feet. One loop sits under the tile, and the other loop sits under the original 2" wood flooring, with a 3' x 5'tiled area for the other original 3/4 bathroom included in that loop. I have a recirc pump-Taco 007 Bronze-on my water heater (I know, not the most popular choice for a heat source), running through a triangl Tube 3" x 8" stainless steel heat exchanger. A Honeywell air scrubber, two zone valves, a mixing valve,an Amtrol expansion tank, and a Taco 007 Bronze circulator (drives both loops)make up the rest of the closed loop hydronic heat side. Very basic-on/off system.
What temperature of water should I send to the new bathroom ( 100% tile over original subfloor)? What temperature do I send to the wood floor/tile loop? During it's test drive the system would take the chill off, yet not really warm it up. Clothes/construction rags dropped on the floor made it possible to detect more heat under those items, but not much.
Back to the books I discovered cramming the insulation all the way up into the joist bays was wrong. I did not use foil backed insulation. Again very basic-but would heavy duty aluminum foil on top of the insulation work? The original portion doesn't have a rock/concrete wall completly around it, and I'm going to seal it up now that the snow has melted, and access is possible from the outside. Does cold seep up from the ground in the crawler? If so does putting plastic on the ground down there help? What about stapling the plastic under the joist bays to seal it that way? What am i doing? What made me think I could do this any way? What was I thinking?????? AAHHH
What should I do? Should I junk the whole system, sell it for scrap, and never ever again think about trying Hydronics? Or am I able to salvage this thing, save face, have warm friendly feet,and live happily ever after again?
All criticism, comments, and questions are appreciated. Are there any educational programs anyone would reccommend over others? Low wages, and a high consumer demand in my area drove me to run, and operate my own licensed, and insured plumbing company. I'm trying to educate myself as much as possible, yet at times feel pretty stupid in regards to hydronics. Did I waste my time, and money too?

Weezbo · May 2005

*`/;)

You got alot of figurin ta do

Heres why...theres a group of minor technicalities....

putting a vapor barrier on the ground is not going to hurt anything.

however, ya aint going to like this much,

in order to determine whats what with the tuberage and temps you will need to determine what the heat you send on the way to the floor is going to want to do...Insulation was a Good idea,buh...you would get more benifit to put the pipes higher on the joist bays or get some plates and stick the pipes in the plates after attaching he plates to the floor itself,(from underneath ...Then...insulating the bays again....)the lower the temperature of the water the more moderate of a space conditioning mood swing the system will deliver...for me lowering the temps would help at least keep the edge off while you consider and ponder on the applicabilities

don_121 · May 2005

well

> You got alot of figurin ta do

>

> Heres

> why...theres a group of minor

> technicalities....

>

> putting a vapor barrier on

> the ground is not going to hurt

> anything.

>

> however, ya aint going to like this

> much,

>

> in order to determine whats what with

> the tuberage and temps you will need to determine

> what the heat you send on the way to the floor is

> going to want to do...Insulation was a Good

> idea,buh...you would get more benifit to put the

> pipes higher on the joist bays or get some plates

> and stick the pipes in the plates after attaching

> he plates to the floor itself,(from underneath

> ...Then...insulating the bays again....)the lower

> the temperature of the water the more moderate of

> a space conditioning mood swing the system will

> deliver...for me lowering the temps would help at

> least keep the edge off while you consider and

> ponder on the applicabilities

don_121 · May 2005

well

> You got alot of figurin ta do

>

> Heres

> why...theres a group of minor

> technicalities....

>

> putting a vapor barrier on

> the ground is not going to hurt

> anything.

>

> however, ya aint going to like this

> much,

>

> in order to determine whats what with

> the tuberage and temps you will need to determine

> what the heat you send on the way to the floor is

> going to want to do...Insulation was a Good

> idea,buh...you would get more benifit to put the

> pipes higher on the joist bays or get some plates

> and stick the pipes in the plates after attaching

> he plates to the floor itself,(from underneath

> ...Then...insulating the bays again....)the lower

> the temperature of the water the more moderate of

> a space conditioning mood swing the system will

> deliver...for me lowering the temps would help at

> least keep the edge off while you consider and

> ponder on the applicabilities

don_122 · May 2005

No

I think you learn a lesson that we all learn...Everything is
not so black and white.

If I recall in most of Dans book,somewhere it says that there nothing like a good heatloss or manual j program to
start you on the right path.

So if we may ask..what is the heatloss for this area? And
when you did the calculation did it also figure in floor covering as well?

Did you know they claim stress is the reason for most baldness in the us of a? They just dont know if its from
rubbing or pulling! LOL.

Mad Dog_2 · May 2005

Some pictures of the work are in order

You coul always pay a pro from this site to come out and give you a real assessment of the job. Mad Dog

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JB_6 · May 2005

Huh?

You nailed it Don-I don't have a clue as to how to do a heat loss calculation, or even where to start. Manual J program? Huh? What's that? I think I can...I think I can... Another error in judgement on my part. The lights are on, I THINK I'm home, yet I still can't see. Helpppp LOL
Where do I get ahold of a heat loss, or manual J program, to get started on my way to the right path? I know I deserve it for forging ahead down the hydronics road without my road map-will someone please give me my verbal beating now? The anxiety is killin me, and you guys are being too easy on me. (I still have my hair) LOL

Big Ed · May 2005

Heat loss

Sign out the book Modern Air Condition and Refrigerating from your libury go to page 1050 or around . They have a work sheet and all the needed factors.

You will need to measure the outdoor walls ,windows,doors,skylites,ceilings,floor area ,cubic area.Need to know what type windows and doors.Whats behind the above....Would take a few minutes to calulate and save a lot of guessing and work.

Weezbo · May 2005

That was a Novel idea!...*~/:)... drop a brother some work..

Yeah ...Thats the ticket! then you can pick his brain about a group of stuff And get a quick up date on the minor technicalities

See the clarity in that ?

Whata deal

if you look on find a professional you would likely find someone to really help you a group more than you would have ever expected....

Rocky · May 2005

Yo JB...Wirsbo's C-DAM is a great tool...

Get your hands on Wirsbo's Complete Design Assistance Manual. It has all kinds of installation proceedures, tips, how-to type stuff. A GREAT tool for piping, controls all kinds of stuff. I reread it often because I forget just how much good stuff is in it. A veritable wealth of radiant, and as Weezbo, or Wild William as I call him says, "all things hydronical."
Get one and read it. It will answer alot of your questions.
REgards,
Rocky

JB_6 · May 2005

Find a professional search

... came up Zero for my area. I do throw plumbing work to my plumbing brothers. It's about the customers getting their needs met-not my wallet.

I presumed that none of my local hydronics pros would be interested in giving me any information. Here's why....

Approximately three months after I had given more than proper notice to my last employer to venture out on my own, a major wildfire blazed through our little community, completely disprupting projects in process, and pretty much brought all business in the community to a halt. I called my former employer, and left a message asking him for some work. He never even called back to say "no thanks bucko". I'm not a slacker.

The plumbing company owners pretty much give me the cold shoulder when we encounter each other even when I initiate conversation. Once a grunt-always a grunt in their eyes I guess. Duck em. The other "grunts" in the area are friendly/talkative-keeping busy Jim?-right on you go boy. Just one guy, chasing down the _hit work all the other plumbing companies couldn't be bothered to do 45 minutes away from town, I didn't realize I was such a threat/competition to them. I did not go into plumbing with the intention I was going to get my Master Plumbing license, and run my own company. If the dastards in my area had paid better wages-I'd still be there. Every season they all scramble to get help, then lay em off at the end. All the same grunts-moving from plumbing company to plumbing company every season. It pretty much forces the grunts to chase down the side work. So I jumped ship brother, and I am still swimmin.

I just didn't see any hydronics help available locally. With hydronics becoming more popular here in the Fat US of A, isn't there enough pie for everyone to get a piece?

So anyway weezbo, and maddawg: I respect your input yet it really isn't likely any of em are gonna take a check from me in exchange for some hydronics info. I've approached a couple-you're the competition they say.....and I respect that.

JB_6 · May 2005

Thank you Rocky

I just recently nailed my wholesaler down, and acquired the CDAM-just haven't had time to sit down...
and read it. But I will

JB_6 · May 2005

Thank you big ED

I will stop at my local library soon, and check out the book. Thanks for the info

JB_6 · May 2005

Thanks for the direction

Don-I will pursue learnin myself about heatloss calcs-pronto.

don_124 · May 2005

Good Luck

to you JB!And as they say..Don't dive head first in shallow water.

Mad Dog_2 · May 2005

Ok so post some pics and we'll try to see what we can do

One question first? "Fat Ol' USA"..don't know if I care for that comment, but you probably didn't mean any harm, right? Mad Dog

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Weezbo · May 2005

ok so heres the deal....all work and no books no makey

a plumbea a bad monkey

Hydronics designe books abound. the first book to get though is one on steam. steam clearly sets in a mans mind just what is what. you fornicate anything up big prolems:)...then a simple book on physics because as you realize we all must live under the Law of the highest "being" and in our neck of the woods it is good old terra firma. so ouspensky's the third order is a good book for getting real aquainted with Laws that Govern.an one of the faveorite books is the bible as it having been around a while ,and where else can you find info on parting the red sea

?just the concept is heavy:)

JB_6 · May 2005

fat ol USA

I was referring to America's consumption of products, and the Earth's resources. Consumption drives our economy, in my opinion.
If my use of the word fat offended anyone-please accept my apoligies. It was late, and I'm sure there was a better choice of words to use to communicate.
I'll try to get some pictures posted by the end of this weekend. Thank you everyone for your input, information, and patience. Jim

Did I waste my Time, and Money...?

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