PEX Lawsuit in Seattle

John Ruhnke

Paul,

This is bad news and bad journalism. The press blaims that PEX pipe. They are putting fear into homeowners. This kind of fear killed the PB industry. The problem is that there aren't strict enough standards in this country regarding plastic pipes. This kind of thing is what I fear most. With out the tougher standards some PEX manufacturers will produce products that fail. The whole PEX industry will be blaimed and not just the manufacturer at fault. I'm not saying that the manufacturer was at fault in this case. I don't know all the facts. It sounds like Bad installation practices and bad supply house handleing may be the cause here.

I want to stress to everyone here that PEX built to the tougher German DIN standards does not fail and hasn't failed. Uponor has installed enough PEX to rap the earth at the equater more then 20 times, billions and billions of feet for over 30 years. Not one foot has failed do to wear and tear yet that has been properly installed. NOT ONE FOOT!!!! That is a very good and safe track record. You can't say that about copper. PEX by German DIN standards is safer then copper.

John Ruhnke

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Paul Pollets

Pex Failures in Open Systems

One of the lawsuits regarding failure of Pex piping in open systems is about to start in Seattle. I was asked to be an expert witness in the case of "MM Comfort Systems vs. Glover Homes" this past week. I declined because I had repaired several of the systems, and was being asked by the attorneys representing MM, who installed the systems. The case involves the use of Plasco non-barrier tubing connected directly to water heaters, and connected to wall convectors/fan coil units. There was significant failure of the tubing causing water damage to several hundred condo units throughout King County. It was reported that the tubing installed, was stored in the wholesalers yard in direct sunlight. If this was indeed the case, then it can be assumed that UV was the "probable" cause of the failure. Since the water heaters were set at 150-160 to allow the fan coil units to operate, high water temps could have also contributed to premature failure.

This will be an interesting case and important for the radiant industry. There's another lawsuit regarding the failure of Pex-Al-Pex piping installed using the water heater/fan coil design. It's unlikely that the story will be covered by any major media. The original story appeared on KIROTV, as an investigative piece with scary headlines. I've contacted the author to ask if she'll do a follow up. I'm allowed to contact the attorney after the trial.

Where will the blame fall?

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Adam_15

Paul , I have always been told that non barrier pipe connected to a hydronic system was a definate no no . Saying that , the high tempurature application would definately accelerate the deterioration of the pipe . Definately this happens alot , it happened alot in BC in the early 90s alot of system failures and property damage which directly led to a Hydronics installation code being adopted here in Canada . The enforcement is not there but I guess it gives owners legal ammunition in a court of law . Too bad it is unfortunate that this happened and that the installer will probaly get nailed for it that is if he is still is in business .If not they will more than likely go after the wholesaler if they can prove it was they who sold the product that was installed . The manufacturer will walk away from this one smelling like a rose , being that his product was used in an improper fashion .

Dave Yates (PAH)

If I remember correctly....

the reporter's comments indicated the open systems in question had water of questionable quality when they failed. The lawyer I spoke with who was involved (at that time) wasn't sure if they were going to test for Legionella (don't know if they ebver did). I'd also heard the tubing failed where fire-caulk had been applied where the tubes penetrated fire-rated partitions/walls/floors. Also heard the UV degradation story.

The wheels of justice grind slowly!

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Dave Yates (PAH)

link to original story

http://www.kirotv.com/money/1954263/detail.html

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[Deleted User]

The ONLY ones that will win...

Are the lawyers...

The losers will be any one else that touched, or even THOUGHT about touching the material...

They not only look for deep pockets, they'll look at ANY pocket with an insurance poilcy beside it.

Tort reform is the answer. Tort reform.

ME

GH

Proper training a must.

We are near Buffalo,N.Y. and have had problems with all
aspects of radiant and some in reguards to Pex.The problem
seems to be proper training and knowledge.For example a
staple up system in a 10,000 sq ft home is not working
even after several atempts by the contractor to make
ajustments.So now the contractor tells the guy that the
radiant install is just a supplement and needs to install forced air also.This guy is of considerable means and is very much not happy.So in conclusion this guy is telling
people (NEVER AGAIN) and thats a shame.

kevin coppinger_4

ditto to...

that! Sue first and ask questions later...everyone wants to get the quick buck....lawyers will get the most $$$ and the people with the issues will get pennies on the dollar. kpc

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GMcD

The bigger issue

Is that the negative publicity will put the radiant industry back another 10 years. That, coupled with the number of hack jobs, is not going to help the industry. Education and standards are needed more than ever, and efforts in this regard have to double or triple to make up for these issues. Legislation may be one avenue, but education and enforcement of standards is the biggest issue. The media will never report the real facts, and all people will remember is that radiant and PEX = bad. The real problem is that someone took the lowest bid, and then they bought the cheapest material, without any due diligence on what they were getting. Educated builders and developers may not have gotten themselves in this mess.

J.C.A._3

Too bad.....

This report waits until the end to explain its earlier statement about the "This could happen in YOUR house"!
I also like the way they stated that it is a "inexpensive way" to heat. Sure it's cheap when you use a water heater for a boiler! (not even on the worst day of my career would I recomend that).

Scare tactics and news coverage, what a combination. Paul, I hope this works out well and the customers are finally satisfied. If they drag this out with the blame game mentality I see coming, you're gonna have a hell of a time getting new prospects to forget what they heard and saw. (If they insist on saying PEX as a general material, may I suggest a phonecall and remind them that there IS more than 1 manufacturer, and many more competent installers out there?) Chris

Adam_16

What legal avenues could a hydronics association use to sue KIRO for a piece of journalism that is nothing more than a scare tactic?. Slander and defamation of the hydronics industry this hurts the industry as a whole . Journalist should tell the story by reporting the facts instead of trying to convey a sense of worry in the public .
How about this introduction , cheap builders don't want to pay for proper system so they use improper materials , improper equipment , and poor installation practices . If you called the builder cheap in a public forum you could be liable however they can slander an industry .

adayton_2

Not One Failure John ??

John Ruhnke, I would beg to differ regarding your failure rate claim. "not one foot"... I have repaired a Wirsbo hePEX install that burst TWICE and a THOROUGH review of the operating conditions found that the radiant system was in fact running well within the Manufacturers specifications. That being said, I would however wholeheartedly agree that the Uponer Wirsbo hePEX Plus IS one of the BEST, greatest and most reliable products ever to hit the radiant heating market....It does REQUIRE however very careful installation and prudent operating conditions to assure the longevity of the system.

Alfred

Paul Pollets

Failure...

Alfred, yours is the only case I've ever heard of a Wirsbo hePEX piping failure. I've been using their products for 15 years without any problems, and would be interested to know: was the failed system connected to a water heater? Was it a closed loop system at 12psi? Were the heat emitters radiant floors, or radiators/wall panel rads?

What were the company's comments or explanation?

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adayton_2

Failure..hePEX

did fail. Sample and data are in process of being collected for transmission to the Wirsbo distributor for analysis. After the Company has had the oportunity to analyse the failed material I will report back on this forum with their results. In the meantime although the system was not running under so called "standard" call outs, this system was however operating (for TEN years) WITHIN the manufacturers specifications. At this time there were TWO (2) bursts in the hePEX (no failure in connectors). The system was thereafter deliberately tailered to the LOW end of "STANDARD" conditions and is now once again operating flawlessly. I will publish complete before and after operating details after the manufacturer has had a chance to perform their examinations. Please be assured as my post indicates that I have the utmost confidence in the Uponer_Wirsbo hePEX product lines. The install in this failure instance was operating at higher than "minimal" operating conditions over a ten year period. HOWEVER it was operating within specs and therefor should not have failed. I look forward to the conclusion of the tests merely for educational reinforcement.

Alfred

Josh_10

Paul, I am a Radiant Heating contractor in good standing here in the Puget Sound area. I would be glad to put out a letter to KIRO as well if it would help. Email me the contact info if you get a chance.