Seeking Input from fellow Wallies... (ME)

steve b_13

I would not state about wood flooring that it is necessary to make sure that "the wood is as dry as possible prior to application". Having wood too dry when it is installed also can be a problem. If the flooring is too dry, later high humidity conditions can cause "compression set" failure of the edges of the flooring that will result in permanent gaps between the boards.

Here is a web page that explains this phenomenon and offers some guidelines for successful wood floor installations. (go to the end of the page for the section about wood flooring)

http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/detailing_for_wood_shrinkage.html

[Deleted User]

Q&A format

Wallies, I'm in the process of putting together a handout to prospective hydronic radiant customers, and am seeking your input. Attached in WORD please find the actual document. Add to it, or comment on it as you deem fit. Feel free to use it in your business if you think it will help.

Am also putting together a contractors "check list" as it pertains to hydronic radiant heating systems, and will post that under a sperate header for comment.

Thanks in advance for participating, and remember to pay it forward...

ME

[Deleted User]

Q&A format

Wallies, I'm in the process of putting together a handout to prospective hydronic radiant customers, and am seeking your input. Attached in WORD please find the actual document. Add to it, or comment on it as you deem fit. Feel free to use it in your business if you think it will help.

Am also putting together a contractors "check list" as it pertains to hydronic radiant heating systems, and will post that under a sperate header for comment.

Thanks in advance for participating, and remember to pay it forward...

ME

BEGIN ATTACHMENT (the wall is having some issues with attachments this morning...)

Frequently asked questions and answers regarding hydronic radiant heating systems

Q. Why do I need insulation in the floors of my home with radiant floors? Doesn’t heat rise?

A. Heat, in the form of radiant energy travels omni-directionally through the path of least resistance, including downward directions. In order to maximize human comfort, insulation must be placed in the joist bays of radiant floors even though the space below is heated. In the case of a cement basement floor, if left un-insulated, the energy that you paid for will be dissipated to the cooler earth temperatures below and be of no benefit to you.

Q. Can I have hardwood floors on my radiant heated floor?

A. Yes, however, there are certain guidelines that your hardwood flooring contractor must follow in order to insure a trouble free installation. Much of it has to do with making sure that the wood is as dry as possible prior to application, and that the substrate is also as dry as possible prior to application. It is also important that the relative humidity within the home be maintained at a reasonable level to keep all woods stable in their dimensions.

Q. Can I have carpeted floors on my radiant heated floor?

A. Yes, radiant floors can have carpet applied over the top of them, however, the pad must be as thin and dense as possible, and the carpet should be as thin as possible. If this is in a bedroom application, you might want to consider an alternative means of providing comfort to this part of the home. Most people like a cooler sleeping environment. High mass radiant floors are not conducive to deeps set back and quick pick up conditions. In other areas of the home, provided that the rules of pad density and carpet pile thickness are followed, carpet can be applied, however, the carpeting represents a resistance value to the flow of heat and it may require additional augmentation heat in order to guarantee total comfort in those areas. Consider something that is more conductive for your floor finishing choices. It is extremely important that the radiant floor designer be aware of your final finished floor choices. Although the floor plan may call out a hardwood floor finish, if you intend to place large throw rugs on top of this finished floor, the designer must be made aware of it or the floor will under-perform.

Q. Why is WarmBoard so much more expensive than the alternative (GypCrete)?

A. Although on the outward appearance, WarmBoard may look like it is more expensive than Gypcrete, once you take into consideration all of the other structural changes that are necessary to accommodate the Gypcrete, like deeper floor joists for additional dead load, second sole plates throughout the home, changes in elevation to accommodate the necessary 1-1/2” to 2” elevation changes, mid beam supports on so forth, the net installed cost of the WarmBoard is nearly the same cost as the Gypcrete system, but its thermal performance is significantly greater than the alternative. WarmBoard can achieve its maximum recommended output of 30 btu’s per square foot per hour with water temperatures as low as 105 degrees F, whereas the Gypcrete system may require water temperatures as high as 120 degrees F to achieve the same output. The lower the water temperature, the lower your utility bills.

Q. Are radiant ceilings as comfortable as radiant floors?

A. Yes, they can achieve a comfort level as high as a radiant floor heating system. Although you are not in contact with the radiant ceiling like you would be a radiant floor, the ceiling will still deliver the same type of radiant warmth to the interior of the home. It is also less expensive to install initially because it is not necessary to cover every square foot of the ceiling with tubing as it is with radiant floors. Technically speaking, it is not necessary in some cases to cover every square foot of the floor with tubing, however you, the consumer are paying for “warm floors”, so it becomes necessary for the contractor to cover every square foot of floor with tubing even though it is not needed.

Q. Why are hydronic radiant heating systems so much more expensive than their air heating counterparts?

A. In the case of hydronic radiant heating systems, we are installing miles of tubing, as opposed to hundreds of feet of duct work. The labor factor to install miles of tubing is obviously significantly greater than the labor necessary to install hundreds of feet of duct, hence it is more expensive to install.

Q. What makes hydronic radiant systems so much better than a forced air system.

A. Comfort. While a forced air system is good at delivering “heat”, heat is but one component of “comfort”. A hydronic radiant heating system can also be zoned such that unused rooms can be kept at a lower operating temperature, which results in significant energy savings. It is not uncommon to have two identical homes, one with hydronic radiant, the other with forced air, and the hydronic homes energy bills are a minimum of 30% less than its forced air counter part. But that is just a side benefit. The biggest reason is due to overall human comfort.

Q. Can I have air conditioning (cooling) with a hydronic heating system in my home?

A. Yes. There are many high velocity cooling systems whose ducts will fit within a 2X4 wall and provide excellent comfort when cooling demands exist. There is also a possibility in certain areas where a good portion of the cooling can come from the radiant heating system. This is very dependent upon the final floor finishes in a radiant floor system, but it can and is done.

Q. Can I have air treatment systems in my hydronic heated home?

A. Yes. Air to air heat recovery ventilators can be interfaced with humidity controls and air purification systems to provide for a fresh, healthy comfortable environment.

Q. Can my local plumber install the hydronic radiant heating system?

A. Yes, provided that he has taken the time to properly educate himself and his staff as to the proper methods of installation. It’s not as simple as throwing a bunch of tubing into the floor joists and hooking it up to a boiler, although many internet companies would like you to believe that it is that easy. Always check references on the contractor of your choice, and be sure to visit an existing job to look at the quality of craftsmanship used to install the system.

Q. Can I install the hydronic radiant heating system myself?

A. Although it is entirely possible to install the heating system yourself, unless you are extremely handy in the fields of plumbing, electrical general construction and sheet metal, it is usually best left to professionals. Many of the components of a radiant floor heating system, if improperly installed can cause death or loss of property. It may be possible for you to instill some sweat equity and perform some of the lesser skilled jobs, like trenching, insulation and wire mesh installation, along with assisting in the actual tubing installation work. But usually, beyond that, the code requires the use of licensed professionals to complete the work.

Q. Can I use solar thermal to heat my hydronic radiant home?

A. Yes, provided that it is properly designed and installed. The problem with solar energy is that when you need it the most, you get it the least. Typical storage tank temperatures in a solar water heating system are around 140 degrees F during the lowest solar period, which is at winter solstice. If the hydronic radiant heating system is properly designed, it will work well with this lower water temperature.

Q. Can I use geo-thermal to heat and cool my home with a hydronic radiant heating system?

A. Yes, but proper design becomes even more critical because the maximum water temperature from a pure geo system is 115 to 120 degrees F. The system can be designed as a hybrid system with a combination of geo and other means, but it still requires a lot of attention to detail and should be performed by a professional to guarantee proper operation. Geo, or ground source systems are inherently more expensive due to the increased material costs and the cost associated wit the geo loop field/well field construction. The operating cost of a geo system can be significantly less than a conventionally heated system, with air conditioning costs typically being less than half a conventional system.

Brad White_30

Nice read, ME...

A couple of comma's maybe but that is too a. retentive...

I will check it in more detail at my leisure (whatever leisure is)...


One other point I like to make versus FHA heating is the transport cost.

Running a fan (1/3, 1/2, 3/4 or more HP) to move an insulator (air) all the time heat is delivered. Compare that to a low-wattage pump to move a conductor (water), the cost per "delivered" BTU is much less with hydronics.

My $0.02,

Brad

[Deleted User]

Caffine induced erors...

Thanks for the input Brad. Valid and welcome as always. I briefly spell checked it but, you know...

ME

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Evaporative Cooling

Air conditioning by evaporative coolers is also an excellent option in Colo. and most of the West. COP's of 20+

DanHolohan

Mark,

the only format that you can attach on the Wall is jpeg or pdf. Sorry about that.

I think prospective customers will respond better if there are fewer technical terms and more analogies to things they already know. Also, you've got typos that need fixin'. Thanks for sharing.

Kevin O. Pulver

Well, ME

You have load more experience than myself, bit here is how I answer the question:
Doesn't heat rise?
I tell them, "Warm AIR rises, like in hot air balloons, but heat goes to cold. Everyone knows insulating your basement walls will make it warmer-Because heat goes sideways. Lay on your basement concrete or stand barefoot on your garage floor for an hour this winter and tell me where the heat went. You'll find heat also goes DOWN.
In this way I try to avoid the "head bobbing" effectlike Dan talks about when you've lost them. My wife says I get to carried away and technical, telling them more than they want to know, but I'm learning to restrain myself. Kevin

Kevin O. Pulver

Radiant comfort

I say it this way, If it sounds like BarbaHolohan, it's just because it is- and probably others I've forgotten.
Have you ever stood by the thermostat shivering miserably at 70 degrees? That's because moving air chills your body. Remember last summer, out on the porch? You were sweating, it's 100 degrees, and you start fanning yourself and feel cooler. (I fan them with a brochure at this point) Your furnace does the same thing all winter long-- chills you with hot air. NOW remember being outside on a cool fall or spring day. If it's dead calm and the sun is shining you might be perfectly comfortable at even 50 degrees. When a cloud covers the sun, you're chilled immediately- but the air temp hasn't changed. A few seconds later, the sun reappears, and you're instantly warm. Comfort isn't so much about air temperature as it is radiation. Kevin

[Deleted User]

Thanks to everyone for their input...

Still massaging it into a better form.

Any other comments/suggestions?

ME