Thanks to Rich Trethewy

Jed_2

what RT's alternative was to a control system as precise and dependable as Tekmar's; what, TMV's?

Jed

ScottMP

We had the pleasure of having

Richard Trethewy speak last night at our local PHCC chapter. He spoke about system design briefly and also the question of the coming oil crisis. It was a thoughtfull discussion on effeciency of equipment, home design and fuel usage.

As allways it was fun and informative. If you ever get a chance to here Richard speak or to go to a training seminar, don't pass it up.

Thanks Richard.

Heres a few photos. Thats Richard, Jeff Waldman and myself after the meeting.

Scott

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Wayco Wayne

I just saw

RT on an episode of this Old House where he explained how to use a pipe wrench. I actually learned something from his explanation to improve my technique despite having used pipe wrenches for years. He's the real deal. What did he have to say about the oilshortage in 25 words or less? WW

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Mark Eatherton1

The guy is a prophet...

He predicted the demise of Entran II to within a month of it's being taken off the market...

He's pretty funny too. I remember a quote of his from ISHNA, he was addressing the need for control simplicity. "You walk down into the basement, and there are all these blue boxes all over the place... You've got a 263 talking to a 364 talking to a 152 talking to a 665. All I need (holding his hand up to his head like a gun) is a .357 KAPOWWW!!" Had the crowd rolling on the floor.

As for the oil shortage, he's echoing a couple of writers that wrote Then End of Oil, and the Party's Over. He's predicting the need for immediate and substantial energy conservation and equipment upgrades in order to keep people warm. And where do you suppose the consumers going to turn to get this work done??? To US!!

I'm tellin' ya, he's a prophet who knows how to profit.

ME

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hydronicsmike

MY OWN OPINION ONLY!!!!

If he would only start to talk about the good in his products rather than trying to convince everyone about the bad in others products!!

There is a day where even those guys will realize that more business is gained by being more flexible rather than trying to push the European Way on North American Guys. If its not the German way, then its the Highway, right? Forget it Knuckleheads.

One of the 'great' guys there once told me that he was more German than I was. I am born and raised there for over 20 years and the one arguing was at ISH in Frankfurt twice, thats it! But sure enough, his **** and Stubborness was beyond mine, making him more German than me, I guess...



Mike

hydronicsmike

Let me hug you my friend!!



Mike

Jed_2

maybe I'll see you

in Portland, May 16th. No hug necessary. I might get embarassed. I try to spec Tekmar whenever possible, or as the strategy calls. I am not a stocking dist., but trust is everything. I do sell quite few PC705's, though.

Jed

Dave Yates (PAH)

I'm jealous!

A night with the guru that raised the level of respect for all plumbers. Wish I'd been there to share.

Keep on plugging Rich. I get a charge out of seeing you on TOH every time. Norm who?

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Jed_2

Plumbers

should stick to plumbing.

Dave Yates (PAH)

well

tis a good thing they did or you might not be here in a healthy state! research a bit about typhoid and cholera in the late 1800's & early 1900's for a real eye opener. Plumbers, PE's, and codes advanced health issues so dramatically and effectively that in less than 100 years, more lives were saved than all medical advances combined throughout all of recorded history. A job so well done, that it's now taken for granted.

Stick to just plumbing? When we've done such a bang-up job in that area? Hardly. Lead, follow or get out of the way.

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Mark Eatherton1

Gee Jed...

Are you of the mistaken impression that plumbers don't know how to do hydronics?

Here's an article that caught me just a little flack...

by Mark Eatherton
Many plumbers, at the behest of their local plumbing/heating wholesalers, have given in to the notion of dabbling in hydronics because, "after all, it is just piping isn't it?"

Plumbing vs. Hydronics. What do these two trades have in common? They both use piping and tubing to transport fluids from one point to another. And in most cases, they both require a certain skill and knowledge of how to solder. Beyond these few similarities, however, there are many major differences that do not seem readily apparent on the surface. Let's examine some of them:



Piping

Figure 1
Although both trades commonly deal with the same types and sizes of piping and tubing, their end results are quite different.

In plumbing applications, water is generally driven through the system by water pressure in the water mains. This pressure is typically 30-150 psi. This substantial pressure allows a large quantity of water to move through a very small pipe in a very big hurry at the flick of a wrist.

But in hydronics, although the piping may be pressurized by city water pressure, the actual movement of the fluid is accomplished by relatively small pumps, whose pressure-generating capabilities are typically less than 10 psi. Minor details, such as not reaming the pipe to full bore, can and usually do have a severe negative impact on the operation of a closed loop hydronic heating system. Although mandatory under the codes governing both trades that "the pipes shall be reamed to full bore," most plumbers don't take the time to ream their pipes because there is no perceived "negative impact" to the operation of their plumbing systems. In the case of most potable water distribution systems, this is true. This is due in part to the fact that their systems are not flowing constantly, and the flow is being driven by a force three to 15 times greater than the forces found in a typical closed loop hydronic heating system.

Knowing this adds new meaning to the path of least resistance and the need for the proper reaming of all pipes. Most good hydronic technicians know this for a fact. Those who don't are typically plumbers working in a "hydronician's" world.



Fittings

Figure 2
Both trades use the same fittings, but hydronicians use fittings to balance out the subtle flows in their heating systems. The plumber on the other hand, just has to run pipes from point A to point B and let the city water pressure take care of getting it there.

A good hydronician would never consider using a "bull head" tee in his distribution system, but plumbers do it all the time. Hydronicians are required to use as few fittings as possible due to the potential hydraulic resistance to flow, and correct flow is critical to the operation of the heating system.

Plumbers could actually learn a lot from a good hydronician. Let's take for example the piping of three 3-port hot water storage tanks being heated by a low mass copper fin tube boiler. A good hydronician would pipe the tanks in parallel reverse return to keep the pressure drops through all three tanks equal. A conscientious plumber would probably pipe the tanks in pyramidic parallel to even out the flow. An unknowledgeable plumber would pipe them in parallel direct return because "it looks better and uses less pipe." Let's look at the physical differences between these three methods.

In Figure 1, the tanks are piped in pyramidic parallel, just like it shows in many manufacturers' installation manuals. The correct balanced flow is dependent on the installer's ability to guarantee the perfect center to center positioning of all header tees. If he can't center the tees perfectly, the flow through the tanks will not be balanced. This system is quite cumbersome to install and maintain and is quite labor and material intensive. A typical installation will require a minimum of 15 elbows, 13 tees and around 75 soldered joints. The labor necessary to install a system of this type would depend on the skill level of the installer and tools used. A person of my experience and skill level could probably perform this installation in six to eight hours using conventional tools.

In Figure 2, the tanks are piped in parallel direct return. Piping in this manner will cause Tank #1 tank to see the majority of the flow, Tank #2 to see slightly less flow and Tank #3 tank to see very little flow. During draw down and pumped circulation, the water is going to follow the "path of least resistance," which will be Tank #1 and #2. Tank #3 becomes under used and will create shortages of hot water during peak load periods. The only way to balance this system out is to install balancing valves at the outlets of the tanks and the return tappings of the tank. Even with this, the balance will only be correct for the same flow that was imparted upon the tanks at the time of balancing. Flows less than design at the time of balancing will not be balanced through the tanks.

Although pretty in appearance, this method of installation should be avoided at all times. A typical installation of this type would require seven tees, six elbows, approximately 40 soldered joints and could be performed in four to six hours using conventional equipment. Balancing would require the addition of at least two to three additional hours.




Figure 3
In Figure 3, the tanks are piped parallel reverse return. The flow path and pressure drop through all three tanks would be equal during draw down as well as during pump-forced circulation. There would be no balancing required. This method of piping is preferred among knowledgeable piping professionals and is typically practiced by a good hydronician. The installation would require seven tees, six elbows, around 40 soldered joints and about three hours of "smart" labor. I emphasize "smart" because as a hydronician I don't use conventional tubing cutters, scratch cloth and 3/8-inch flux brushes anymore. Now that I am a hydronician, I use a carbide-bladed high speed chop saw, a 1-inch upright belt sander, flux sponges and I get the work done in less than half the time it used to take using traditional tools.
Based on what you've seen and read, which way do you think is the preferred way to do this job? Example 3 of course!



Valves
Prior to the introduction of the ball valve, the choice of valves was limited to gate valves and globe valves.

Gate valves look great until you have to use them. In most cases, they haven't been used for the 20 or so years that they've been installed. Consequently, over the years, an accumulation of scale and other deposits have built up on the gate glides and stem assembly. The first time you have to close it is usually the last time it will open.

CRUNCH SNAP! I don't know of many other plumbing sounds that will give a plumber a sick feeling than that noise will. If the plumber happens to be so lucky as to have another valve in place up stream, the replacement of the valve is not too bad. If the plumber is unlucky, he may have to shut off the whole street just to replace one valve.

Globe valves, on the other hand, depend on a washer and seat assembly for positive shut off and are inherently more reliable than their gated counterparts. The major disadvantage of globe valves is their inherently high pressure drop. Remember, a good hydronician avoids the use of high pressure drop items in the installation of his system. A good hydronician prefers the use of full port ball valves.



Pumps
Other than a domestic hot water heating system circulation return pump, or possibly a sewage ejection pump, that's as close as most plumbers ever get to a pump. Hydronicians, on the other hand, depend on pumps to make their systems work. A good hydronician knows how to read a pump manufacturer's performance chart and knows how to interpret what he reads.

As you can see, installing a good hydronic heating system is not as simple as connecting pipes from a boiler to some baseboard and throwing a pump and a few other things in for good measure.

So stop and think about these differences the next time you have the opportunity to install a hydronic heating system. It will make a world of difference in the operation of your system. And by the way, the next time you decide to take on a hydronic project, think like a hydronician, not like a plumber. And I know what plumbers think like. I am one!

Post Script. For the full effect with drawings and all, go to

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2379,4298,00.html

Comments??

ME

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Mark Eatherton1

Mikey, Mikey, Mikey,,,

he was ONLY kidding... But he does have some validity to his point. I've walked into many a hydronic heating system where the "designer" did major blue box overkill on the system. Not condemning the blue boxes, just the inexperienced designers and installers.

Richard also is a major user and promoter of Viessmann products, which pretty much come with their own controls. No need for blue box technology.

No malice intended, just a little light hearted jostling...

BTW, I was impressed with the TN4 program in Denver. It really does need to be done over 2 days though. WAYY too much information to pack into my brain in such a short time frame.

Kudos to the boys from Canada. Mr. Lupin did pretty well, given the makeup of the crowd (one tough bunch of Rocky Mountain WetHeads) :-)

ME

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Jed_2

Touche

As long as they know the differences, and read your articles and others. Not all do.

Regards

Jed

ScottMP

And some of the worst

systems and install I have seen came from "Heating Co.". Its not the name of the company, its the installer. As apprentice's, from day one we are taught to run our piping straight and true. Simplying going from point A to point B does not mke for neat work.

The comment that Richard made that really caught my attention was his promotion of the highest quality equipment possible. He said our trades tend to sell down rather than sell up and I agree. If he were to promote middle of the line product than tradesman would then sell down from there. By starting at the best available products he keeps the bar high and as he said " I make not apology's for that". I give him high marks for that.

Dave's right, the man has done more to promote Plumbing And Heating to the public than anyone.

Scott

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Ragu

I like What We Do

Because I get to use a whole bunch of different brain cells (heat loss calcs, piping, wiring, controls etc.). In my former plumbing career, I just couldn't get charged up (I never got really good at DWV, and I never got excited about new lines of toilets and sinks, the way I do about boilers and controls). Some guys can be good at both, but I'm not one of them.

Scott, you are absolutely right on the money regarding upselling, and the lead role RT has taken in that arena. I have no earthly desire to be associated with my "competitors" whose target market includes replacement burners on 40 year old boilers. Uh, uh. Good way to go nowhere.

HYDRONICIAN! Last week I couldn't spell it, and now I are one!

leo g_13

though one of the funniest

things I saw, when on a training seminar @ V was after the instructor "downplayed" tekmars, by never refering to them directly, just as "those blue box guys", we went into the lab and one of the stops included the interior of their snowmelt control (you know, the one that comes in a huge metal box) there before my very eyes was a tekmar 662 at the "heart" of their control. Can you say red face????

Leo G

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hydronicsmike

ME

I know what you mean and maybe I get a little bit to defensive when I hear those kind of remarks. I apologize. For me it is kind of hard just sitting back and listen to those remarks. I truly love what I do and the blue boxes have been my passion long before I started working for the manufacturer. The blue boxes are more a part of me than I am a part of them.

Usually, every blue box does something. When ever I see those pictures in Richards seminars (which I have seen many of at various locations across the country), I see 4-5 Controls all doing something different. One is to stage multiple boiler stages, then there is one who does the mixing (maybe 2 for different water temperatures), one for snowmelt and maybe one for a hot tub. Then in many of those pictures, you'll also see Zone Controls combining Indoor Temperature Feedback of multiple Zones. He never talks about that and Zone Controls with Indoor Temperature Feedback being much more superior over standard thermostat systems. You know why? Because they can't do it! Tell me which single Viessmann Control operates all those parts of a system I mentioned above. I guess what I am trying to say is that "how are they going to do it?"
Fact is, he is trying to sell his controls, which is understandable, but it doesn't need to be done by slandering someone else’s products. Sell YOUR features and functions....it goes a lot further. The blue boxes do have a place and address the things that always needed to be addressed. We wouldn't build anything unless there was a need for it. "Listen to the Market" is one of our slogans. We simply make what people ask for.

Anyways, sorry again and thank you Mark. I need to chill a little more I was simply getting tired of it. All the Variable Speed Injection Mixing bashing over Mixing Valves is just another one of those sore points. Guys need to remember the real reason behind the Injection Mixing bashing. Viessmann sells Valves and not Pumps. Hence, they like to do what they can to bring their valves to the man. tekmar also sells Valves and no Pumps, however, we felt that there is a better way of doing things and thats why we make our customers aware of a (lot) cheaper and more accurate method that can respond faster than any motorized Mixing Valve can that is limited to its reaction time based on Motor Speed. In any case, in the end, we can deal with both and we want to let the customers decide whether they want to use Valves or Injection Mixing, rather than saying that "This is how we do it!"

Am glad you like what you seen about tN4 in Denver. Hopefully you're getting some good time in with Tim. We miss the guy!!


Mike