Buderus Boiler Feedback

Ted_5

radiantted@aol.com I would be happy to help you out! I am on the road all this week and I will be in your area on this Friday. If it works out I could stop over on Friday mid to late mornning or early afternoon. Let me know.

Ted

vhlaundry

Buderus Boiler Feedback

Well I am getting more educated. I have learned that there are no less than 20 Boiler Mfgs. In Minneapolis these are the dominate players. Buderus, Burnham, Weil McClain, Slant-Fin, Munchkin. Other less popular are Smith, Peerless.

I have done the normal Internet research and then called 7 local installers with mixed answers. 3 use Buderus exclusively, a few use Burnham and WM. One pro said he has been installing for 18 years and never heard of Bederus, one said he uses Burnham over Buderus b/c they are now making Bederus in the U.S.A. and aren't as good as the earlier german models.

The 3 I spoke to that use Bederus swear by them.

Can I get some first handhand insight w/o all the hype? I will be replacing a WM HE series(Junk). Are Bederus units as good(well constructed) as they say or are the more WM and Burnham's in the 84-87% efficiency range now made just as well. Given my experience with the WM HE I am not compelled to give them a seconc chance. I really like what I hear and read about the Buderus..........is it all true?

This little venture will most likely cost me $5-7000 do to a complete overall of an aging system. I am not looking to make a mistake. I realize I want a pro who works EXCLUSIVELY on boiler systems b/c all my old outdated pumps etc... will need to be cut out and updated. That said I need someone who will not only install a quality unit but stand behind it.

Incidently, I am leaning toward the traditional units with cast iron boiler b/c I currently vent through my chimney that has the tin duct work lining already in it. However, is it myopic of me to not be considering the super efficient units mucy of the new construction is using with in floor heating?

Mellow_2

heatmister

Keep looking..... You can find the right person to give you the right system for your house. Buderus is a great product but what would it heat ( or what do you have for heat). How will you control the boiler? The right boiler in the right house will save money. Find someone to look at your house and your needs.....or tell us more about your boiler and your heat and we will try to help.

Weezbo

these are good boilers ... you will be plesantly suprised ...

mostly oil is where i am comming from as far as fuel source.i like them for properly designed radiant systems for the most part.they are strong and are a very good match for a riello burner. go with it.*~/:)

vhlaundry

Buderus Boiler Feedback

My home is about 2500 square foot. I live in Minnesota, current broken boiler is a Gas WM HE series 1982. I beleieved it is oversized, 176BTU/137BTU and started to leak. I have been told it is shot and have heard this model was a 'pig'.

Coming off the boiler I have, 3 individual pumps, 3 BG motors and 3 Honeywell relay switches connected to the pumps that are controled by the individual(3) honey round thermostats? No inline pumps. My copper pipes are 1 3/4" with brass Taco venturi valves used to divert water to the individual baseboards. Each BB has two, before and one after the BB. I personally believe this restrict flow but am no expert. Some are reduced down ot 1/2". many, not all, have individual bleaders which are nothing more than a brass screw at one end of the BB heater. They work marginal at best. My pipes bang all winter long. I always am able to blead some air out of my pipes no matter now many times I do it. Some rooms are warm while others are not.

I cannot wait until I get someone in here to assess the job. I have a firm coming in today that sells Buderus exclusively.

I looked at Buderus's website and I really like the looks of there baseboard heaters with individual controls. My BB's are old school galvanized steel with 1/2" pipe and fins.

I am looking at ripping much of the existing piping around the boiler and reducing down to one pump with ind. relay pumps located elsewhere for each zone.

I guess I am looking for feedback on Boiler Mfgs. as well. I have searched much of the net and find no real source that does a good job of delineating and comparing the features of each Mfg and there various units.

Dan_15

Buderus boilers are manufactured and assembled in Germany! Our boilers stand apart because of there design and quality of materials used in construction. The cast iron has silicone and graphite for corrosion protection and flexibility. The standard controls supplied are manufactured by Honeywell so our equipment doesn't need specialized training to install.
If there are any questions, please contact us at 1-800-283-3787. Thanks,

RoosterBoy

I just went through the same thing-this is what I chose.

In the last month, I had my entire 1930's poorly installed steam system replaced- boiler and radiation (the house is pretty much open due to renovation). I would be happy to share my experience and recently aquired knowledge with you via telephone if your interested. It is far more involved than can be summed up in a thread but I will hit the high points.

First and foremost-find a contractor that understands YOUR needs and is not just trying to sell something. You currently have a particular "type" of hydronic heating; hi-temp hot water baseboards. If you intend to keep them (but it sounds like they need some help), some boilers are better suited than others. Don't get to hung up on manufacturers until you deal with how you want to heat the house. If you like the radiators you found on the Buderus website and can afford to retro-fit them into your house, then that will narrow your choices for boiler.

There are a lot of choices these days and most of the innovation is being influenced by the europeans. You know why? They have been dealing with the hi cost of fuel for decades, literally. They design heating systems, not just boilers. Don't let boiler efficiency ranges fool you-they only tell part of the story (in a controlled laboratory). A hybrid engine Toyota Prius that gets 50mpg will suffer greatly if you put octagonal tires on it. The US market is playing catch-up in this respect.

If your goal is to keep cost to an absolute minimum and make minor fixes to your baseboard heating problems, any of the manuf. you are considering will provide many years of service as long as they are installed by a qualified person. I would avoid condensing boilers since conventional baseboards will not benefit from the higher installed cost. Remember, even if your not thinking about fuel savings now, with the prices going up you may be in the very near future. This is what influenced my decision the most.

I chose a Buderus cast iron GA124 sealed combustion with the ability to modulate water supply temp based on outdoor temp (outdoor reset). I could have vented thru a chimney but this boiler will operate in a semi-condensing state with lower water temps so I opted to sidewall vent via SS. I also had combustion air issues so it was worth the extra $. I installed panel radiators in every room (just like the ones you saw on the Budeus website) with individual control (TRV's). The whole thing is home-run piped with aluminum PEX to a manifold that provides constant circulation during the heating season. Most importantly, it was installed by Ted Gregoriadis of Patriot Heating and Cooling-a regular contributor to this forum. I have never met anyone more concerned about my comfort than Ted. This was all based on his recommendation. I will be posting a write-up and photos of his install as soon as it is complete.

Call me at 617-666-7072 if you want to talk more about it.

Ed

Johnboy

buderus

Heatmeister....I work at one of the wholesalers in St. Paul.
if you have any questions about sizing of a new boiler, let me know and I will be happy to answer any of your questions.

Joe_30

We are real happy with our Buderus here in Minneapolis. House has 2,300 square feet. One Taco 007 circulator. Pumpoing away. 5 honeywell zone valves. NO problems. We happen to have small cast iron radiators and I like them a lot.The heat gets there real fast and you can give them a self satisfying pat to know they are working for you.

J.C.A._3

Along with the knowledge of the boilers,

Be sure to ask any installer about their knowledge of "boiler strategy and control".

From what you've described, you have a system that is just right for outdoor re-set and thermostatic radiator valves. You will be able to cut the number of circulators, and be able to control the temperatures of all rooms individually.(SOOO European!)

Comfort is the key and you want someone who knows or can easily learn how to provide it. Good luck, and take these people who are edging you on to task. They can and will point you in the right direction.

If you've REALLY got an itching....Check out the Wetstock posting. The brightest and finest folks in hydronic heating will be in your area in early June. You may think that they will be talking "over your head" about heating, but you will learn more than you want to know about finding a great contractor to install what you need.These guys ARE the best, and will help to give you the best information. (Wish I was going!!!) Best of luck. (O.K. guys,Think about the great publicity you'll get from a homeowner attending. He may be overwhelmed, but I bet he'll be talking up and showing his new system to his neighbors!) Chris :>)

Ted_5

Doing your homework!!

I love it when homeowners look for good quality products and workmanship!! I am a sales rep for MN. I rep Viessmann boilers. If you are looking for good quality and energy savings then Viessmann is a good choice. I have some good contractors that I could reccomend. E-mail me back if you would like some more info. I would be happy to come to your house and look over your system and help design the new one.

Ted

Viessmann rep.

vhlaundry

Westock

Is this a trade show, seminar or??? I am interested to learn more. Please direct me about how to get more information.

Ted_5

Wetstock in MN.

If you look under book store on this sight you will find the listing for this event and the cost to attend. I will be there. I am not sure if this is for you? You can get alot of this info off of the internet. Again I am willing to spend some time with you to help design your system the Euro way.

Ted

Viessmann rep.

RoosterBoy

Heatmeister, I tried sending you photos but it bounced back. Can you verify your email for me again? If you prefer not to post it call me. I've posted the contents here so others can see.

Here are some shots. It really is a well built boiler. I like all the connections in the back, nice and clean. The electronics on top are the "brain". Notice the manifolds on the wall. Each radiator has its own supply and return back to the boiler (no PEX installed when this photo was taken). You could not do this with copper. Another detail you may want to consider is 'constant circulation'. This means that the circulating pump operates all the time during the heating season. Water is always flowing so every last btu of heat generated is distributed to the room. You also get no expansion noise because the system is always as warm as it needs to be in relation to the outside temp. With TRV's on your baseboard, you would have individual room control and only one circulating pump and no need for zone valves for the whole house. The TRVs are the zone valve of sorts. This is how my system works.

The panel radiators are really nice. Maybe you could pick a few rooms that you would like to have them in to minimize cost. They give off wonderful radiant heat which you don't get with baseboard. Everyone that comes over askes about them when they see them and comment on how really cool they look in the room. Its so euro .

Ed

vhlaundry

Your system

That is a work of art. I must say I will use this as inspiration for my project. If I have one thing working for me it is time. Summer is around the corner in Minnesota. Had my WM gone belly up in mid winter I probably never would have been able to explore what the options are available to me. Ed try this email: jachez1@mchsi.com

RoosterBoy

Some references

My heating professional thanks you. He truely is an artist. This is the kind of thing that can happen when a client and a professional come together with a common goal-quality, value and comfort. That is why I chose Buderus. This is not the cheapest, nor is it the most expensive system to install. From a fundamental standpoint it is far less complicated than a typical multi circ/zone/thermostat system yet offers room by room control. Others who have installed this system claim a less than 1 degree tempurature swing +/- in the house throughout the entire heating season. Ask the guy who told you he never heard of Buderus if his system can provide you with that level of comfort. If he says yes, get it in writing.

If you really want to get into it, pick up a copy of John Siegenthaler's Modern Hydronic Heating. Its pricey ($100)(http://www.hydronicpros.com/) but worth every penny. My installer applied every one of his engineering principles to this system. If you feel adventurous download a copy of HVAC-Calc software and start doing your own heat-loss calcs (http://www.hvac-calc.com/hvac/tofc2.asp).

Use this site to find a professional in your area and to learn. That is how I found Ted. In two months I went from thinking I could heat my house with a domestic hot water heater to what you see above. These guys really are the absolute authority on hydronic heating in the country. Do searches for words like Buderus, constant circulation, outdoor reset, flue gas condensation, panel radiators, pumping away, and anything you can think of that applies to your system. The more you know, the more you will really begin to appreciate the details that are in that photo above.

Ed

vhlaundry

My Approach

Ted,
I would very much welcome an opportunity to speak with you. I am one of those guys that does get into just about everything I research....this is no exception. As you have seen in my posts I need some assistance. Especially since I have now had 3 "boiler specialists" out to my home. I have had 3 different solutions presented. Rather than write a lengthy post, I would rather discuss over the phone... or in person. I have called the wirsbo number and left a message for Angela? Even if I could spend several hours at this event, I believe it would pay big dividends. So far I have not been able to find or speak with any LOCAL people that seem to be on the same level as those on this sight. One of the so called specialists who came out wanted to start ripping out walls putting heat under my floors with 5/8pex hainging about a 1/2" below the floor then covered with insulation. This may work.... but is this the best solution? Nobody I have spoken or met with seems confortable with the Eurostyle wall heaters. They may be the best approach for me.

Also, how about Ed's system on this post. That is what I may want to do. I also would like to explore the 5/8" pex aluminum core to replace all my lines. 85% of my copper pipe system is accessible from the basement. Plus I will be redoing my basement. I have done a ton of electrical work... and may want to work in conjuction with a contractor if they are amenable. If not I understand.

Side note: I was very suprised that 'not one' of the 150 attendees at the Wetstock are from Minneapolis.

Ted_9

Hello Heatmeister. I just wanted to make sure you knew that I am the installer that Ed mentioned. And the other Ted is a Viessmann rep. I'm sure he could design a great system for you. Maybe a nice Viessmann, some panel rads and some future radiant?

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

vhlaundry

Contacting you

Ted, How can I reach you? Phone number?? email?? I am learning alot and now realize that there are several options. However I would like to speak with someone who is dialed into this sort of thing.

Ted_5

Nice work Ted!

I love a great looking job!

Ted
Viessmann rep.

Unknown

612-920-3287

jeff_51

we are in mpls

and we use either Buderus or Burnham. Both have been in buisness for many years. Alot of it has to do with cust support and we get very good from the supplier that we get both burnham and buderus from. That contractor who had never heard of buderus is really uninformed. I first heard of them prolly 15-20 yrs ago. It all depends on what you are looking for. You will pay more for the buderus, but will get higher efficency, and make sure the contractor is licensed. He is req'd to be to do the install.