opinions please!

Steamhead (in transit)

the Gasmaster folks do it.

Everything seems to go in cycles. We've gone thru one-pipe steam, gravity hot-water, Vapor, Monoflo, radiant, baseboard loops. Radiant is coming back and a lot of recent R&D has centered around it. Nothing wrong with that. But.....

A pound of hot water can move 10-40 BTUs depending on what delta-T is used.

A pound of steam can move 970 BTUs.

And a steam system won't freeze up like a hot-water system can. Sure you can use glycol on hot-water, and your "pig" setup practically eliminates backflow concerns with glycol. But it's another thing to maintain.

New construction? Well, I like the idea of cast-iron baseboard that won't freeze up, and only four moving parts in the whole system. I can do this with steam. And of course, a newly-designed system would be sized not to the Mills rule but to a modern heat-loss calculation on a fully-insulated building. This would result in smaller radiation and smaller pipes, less metal to heat up. Of course that's true for any system.

I really think we've only scratched the surface with steam.

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Jeff Elston

New Hydro

A couple of my fellow employees have questioned my ways and I need your inputs. We just finish a retrofit project in an old mansion built in 1915. We installed a hydronic system replacing two steam systems.

First things first everything is working as it sould no problem. The system is three boiler feeding a one pipe system . The main is 2.5 inches and we piped it around the boiler room in a big circle. All of the zones and there pumps came off the main and ran out to the rad/fancoil whatever it was, there is a mix between 17 zones.

There seems to be an opion that we should ave run the 2.5 main through the basements and then branched off to the zones.

Each way has it goods and bads what do you think?
I can give more details if needed Thanks

[Deleted User]

Home Run...

is what you're describing versus long running manifold in either parallel direct return or reverse return.

You said 1 pipe system, unless you're crazy like me and a few other people the pipe outside of the box, most hot water systems are a two pipe.

Unless you are referring to a one pipe venturi or diverter or Monoflow system, in which case you SHOULD have run teh main around the exterior, because the pressure drop through the small bore pipe is much greater than the big bore stuff. Harder to install, yes. Adequate? You won't really know until the buildings been run thru its paces.

Hopefully by then, the building will have its mass fully charged, and only require maintenance BTU's...

If it were me, I'd have done what you did, setting the system up on continuous circ with ODR, and put TRV's on every heat emmitter in the building. Pure controlled comfort. Oversize the emmitters so you can run a mod con and keep it in or near its ideal modulating temperatures.

Without seeing your job (tube specs, flow rate and so on) it is virtually impossible to say what the "right" method of onstallation is, but historically speaking, on perimeter one pipe systems, the main is run around the exterior of the house. You've gotta do waht you're most comfortable with. As for field piping, we don't home run much. We also leave zone valves in manifold stations, just to cause us to have to take a look at the manifolds on an occasion. You'd be amazed at what we've found...

Anyway, you're method would probably work OK if you did a good job of sizing it, and in my experienced, most heating systems are twice as big as they need be. In otherwords, the plant can be 50% smaller than the previous equipment if you use mod con boilers.

EDIT: I just re-read and absorbed (DOH) your post. You will most probably be fine. If you weren't using pumps, you MIGHT have issues. Got picture?

ME

Jeff Elston

Funny you should say

that because I am crazy and it is one pipe using twin tees and pumps. I tried to get the "The building Chair" to change contract to TRV's but no deal. But the debate is, should I have run the 2.5 main through all the basements and then branched for zones, This puts all the pumps and valving all over the building, the controls would still be in the boiler room (3 Taco SR506) and that sounds very confusing to me, and not to mention purging.

I think the others look at all 34 pieces of copper leaving the boiler room and just assume I should have run the 2, 2.5 peices of black pipe. I mean 2 is easyer that 34 right!!

I got pics here you go
Thanks Mark

Jeff

[Deleted User]

Nice...

I like the use of the Taco P/S tees.

I guess you have to ask yourself, other than the obvious things like keeping all working components/pumps in one mechanical room, which method saves the most amount of expensive commodities, those commodities being labor and materials.

This is obviously commercial grade stuff. Residentially and light commercially, we would have run PEX-AL-PEX for all the side branches less than 1" in size. It goes REALLY fast, runs REALLY smooth and saves a BUTT LOAD of labor, our most expensive commodity.

But, as I said in the previous post, you have to go with your gut feelings, and what you're most comfy with.

As for function, either system can be made to work.

From the wire to water efficiency, I think that we as an industry are going to have to start taking a long hard look at the way we have typically been doing these systems. I can forsee a day whereby the energy code asks us to determine the net net thermal efficiency o fthe system based on therms delivered per KW of pump power consumed. He who moves the most energy with the least parasitic cost of operation wins...


Looks like it was a fun job with all the vic. And remember this, regardless of HOW you run the piping system, there are a thousand people in the wings with a thousand interpretations/opinions of what works better.

Opinions are like butt holes. Every one has one, and some stink more than others...:-)

Also, if you are going to be doing a lot of soldering, like on this job, I would strongly suggest you invest in a ProPress tool. The labor savings can be significant.

PS, It' is nice to see that there are more crazy wet heads out there other than myself.


ME

Steamhead (in transit)

If I'm reading this right

the 2-1/2" main going thru all the basements is actually the primary loop, and the boilers and zones with their individual circulators are secondary loops. Nothing wrong with doing it that way, unless you absolutely have to have all the circs in a "mechanical room".

For those of us who are old-timers, it's the same thing Dan wrote about the Levi brothers doing in their oil company headquarters.

ME, when you say "He who moves the most energy with the least parasitic cost of operation wins..." you really hit the nail on the head. Overpumping (which we talk about in another thread) has to waste a lot of energy. And BTW- gravity-return steam has no pumping cost whatsoever. I wonder what might have been possible by fixing the old steam systems on this job.

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[Deleted User]

Frank...

I guess I should have also stated in my efficiency statement "as it pertains to hydronic heating systems", or also qualified it as including the net overall thermal efficiency, in which case steam won't win over a 90+ % efficient hydronic heating system.

Steam did and does have its place, but in MHO, it's not in new construction. Would you not agree?

ME

clammy

questions

I checked out your pics and i personally do like to keep all the circ and relay central to one mech room but on some occasion i have done some remote pumps i think it all depends on time and labor as mark had mentioned .I also was wondering are those taco load match tee and if so how and what do you think of them ?As mark had stated about using pex i too probalby have had used pex on that job it looks like alot of copper was run there and it looks like it took a little time .On another note i probalby would have made a wall mount system to support all the piping instead of hanging it all from the ceilings i also see that you used vitalics fittings and groved pipe for your primary loop i may have a job coming up using vitalic for most of the pipe what do you think of it in place of screwed piping all in all nice work and as for design it's all with what you comfortable with and sure that i will perform properly peace and good luck clammy

Jeff Elston

Yo

I also wanted to use Pex but the contract specified copper. Although I did use pex to run up to the second floor, I ran the pex through the old indirect steam duct work and mounted fan coils right over the register.

Yes they are Taco twin tees. They work very nicely, definitely helped here with the space, If I had used regular tees I would have had 17' of tees!! Thats too much.

The fittings are Gruvlok not Vic, and its great It goes together quickly with little effort Ive never had a leak and I use it often.

Wall space was not avalible here and I understand. I built everything around the old steamer what a pain. I also

Christian Egli_2

Well, here's an opinion

Beyond questioning the pipe layout (everything looks nice), I seriously question the building committee chair for going down the road they chose. This steam switch has obviously been the most traumatic pipes-everywhere-redo for this mansion. I'll bet it wasn't neither easy nor inexpensive.

I've seen many such retrofit jobs, the ghost of steam never lurks far away giving you high pressure leaks and leaving pesky floating scale. Plus, building heating performance will not be the same (not necessarily better or worse) but those remembering the good old steam will be found kicking your radiators. They'll be disappointed.

What clues me in to the faulty decision making, is the bizarre refusal to install thermostatic radiator valves. I shake my head at the thought of the many cheap and easy efficiency fix-ups this system could have benefited from.

Is that an opinion, or what?

Oh well, meanwhile, the Gaylord Opryland Hotel in Nashville, (it's quite new) is... ahem... steam heated. There are massively big steam mains to follow around - this place does it all for the tourists, and it's hot.