Save my boiler

ER

Hello,
I bought a 2 family house in Prov. RI last year. Through the year we've(wife, 2kids, and I) been living in it fixing up a bunch and figuring out the plan. with much wisdom from this site.

One unit is in the 1st floor (1200sqft) and the 2nd (1200sqft) and 3rd floor (800sqft) is the second unit. We'll be living in the 2nd and 3rd floor, and renting the first floor. Both units have 1 pipe steam heat with ~5yr old Burnham Independence boilers and they work ok.

The third floor is finished living space but it was finished before electricity was really very common and has no radiators. it does have a gas light stub though! The second floor has a bathroom and small bedroom without any radiators either. There are 166 EDR of radiators and the boiler is 271 EDR or 65,000BTU/Hr. Which works out because the boiler install used cu pipes and no insulation so who knows how much edr is keeping my basement nice and toasty! Long story short it appears I have a lot of boiler for the radiators and the place heats without running the boiler very much anyway. Lots of boiler capacity for heating the 3rd floor and an indirect water heater.

The third floor is going to be a pretty serious reno. It will get quite warm up there even with the modern invention of insulation. So a forced air AC system to 3rd floor and at least part of 2nd floor will be installed. The question is how to expand the heating system in conjunction with the air handler ducting installation.

Help me sort out some options

Heat 3rd floor:
1.electric baseboard
2.forced air with hydro-air coil installed in 3rd floor fed from existing furnace in basement
3.forced air from new nat gas furnace installed in 3rd floor.

Heat 2nd floor:
1. don't touch steam, add electric radiant to new tile floor in bathroom and electric baseboard to bedroom without heat.
2. there aren't any closets so expanding steam lines to 2nd floor would be too much of an impact on 1st floor.
3. rip out CI rads and connect forced air throughout 2nd floor.

In managing the efficiency vs. up front cost I'm tending to shoot for a payback period of 10 years.

Eric

Steamhead (in transit)

If the boiler has excess capacity

and the pipes will handle the extra load, why not run steam risers from the second floor to the third floor and put radiators there?

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ed wallace

steam boiler

how about a hydro air system hooked up to the iver sized steam boiler

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ER

more rads

There is a 2" OD riser feeding two large radiators with 48 and 52 EDR. This is vertical with only about 2ft horizontal before reaching the boiler. Don't know if it has capacity. The other rads are in the part of the house not covered by the 3rd floor.

This riser could be extended up and feed a couple of the rooms without too much trouble. But getting to the

ER

There is a 2" OD riser feeding two large radiators on 2nd floor having 48 and 52 EDR. This riser is at the end of the main running in the basement, approx. 30' of 2 1/4 OD pipe. The main has a wet return maybe 1 3/4 OD. I've guessed this doesn't have capacity and put it out of my mind. Maybe I'm wrong. Let me know. The other rads are in the part of the house not covered by the 3rd floor and couldn't be extended up.


If there is capacity in the main and riser then its still tricky. I attached a quick sketch of the floor layout. Rads could be added to most of the rooms on the floor, but one bedroom is probably not possible due to joists and doorways.

Eric

ER

Ed,
hydro-air could work. But _should_ is more my question?

I assume this would be a water loop and not steam to the hydro-air. There will be probably 50' between boiler and hydro-air unit. Ripe for lots of heat loss.

Or does it make more sense to just put in a conventional gas furnace with a variable speed blower?

Eric

ed wallace

hydro air on 3rd floor

hydro air would be they way to go no flue pipe to worry about on the 3rd floor, if the pipes are insulated very little heat loss

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Steamhead (in transit)

The riser is 1-1/2\" ID

and can handle 152 square feet on its own. But if the runout from the main to the riser is the same size and is not dripped, you're limited to 81 square feet. Drip the riser and that jumps to 224 square feet. An undripped 2-inch runout is good for 165 square feet.

The steam main is 2-inch and can handle 386 square feet. The 1-1/4" wet return is good for 1200 square feet- no, that's not a typo.

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ER

lost in the lingo

Sounds like the 30 foot 2-inch main and wet return can handle 386 sq ft. and the 1-1/2" riser can handle 152 sq ft.

How to combine these capacities in series?

"drip the riser" means a wet return, right? That would boost the capacity by how much?

>The 1-1/4" wet return is good for 1200 square feet- no, that's not a typo.
That is reflecting the much higher density of water right?



Just shooting from the hip if this could feed 100sqft on the 2nd floor and 75sq ft on the 3rd floor i'd probably be in business, and well matched to the furnace. I'll get a J calculation to be sure of the needs. The new fangled insulation to be added to the 3rd floor may reduce that number.


wow, never thought I'd be adding steam rads to the third. this is why i came here.

Eric

kevin coppinger_4

another option ...

would be to put in a heat exchanger off the boiler and run hot water for basebooard, panel rads or CI rads, etc to the second and third floor...Ac cpuld be done w/ a couple of wall units...it would take up a whole lot less space and be more flexable. just another option. kpc

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Steamhead (in transit)

That's right

drain the riser into the wet return so the condensate doesn't have to flow back thru the runout to the steam main. This lets the runout handle more steam.

The wet return can handle that amount since it does not carry any steam at all.

"Steamhead"

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