Which is the best heating system and why?

Matthew Pollock

What would I need for the installation of a radiator system for a two level duplex. The duplex is 64 x 20. What would be the cost of a new radiator system?

Matthew Pollock

Heating Systems

I would like to know which is the best heating system and why. The choices would be between Radiator, baseboard, and radiant in-floor heat. Is there anywhere that I can get installation costs of these systems and specifications on them too.
Thanks

Mike T., Swampeast MO

The best heating system is the one that provides perfect comfort to the occupants without them knowing that it's there...

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Sorry to be terse--not like me.

Radiant panels (floors, walls, ceilings) come closest to the ideal of perfect comfort without apparent source. The efficiency of the boiler driving these panels is HIGHLY related to conduction--the more conduction the better... You can do it mainly or totally by convection, but efficiency is inversely related to temperature.

After radiant panels, old cast iron radiators--particularly when controled via thermostatic raditor valves (TRVs)--can come very close to perfect comfort at the expense of noticeability but with the added benefit of rapid response to a call for increased heat. Such response does however come at a cost in efficiency if it's available at any time with no more user intervention than raising a TRV setting. Again, this is ALL about temperature...

After iron rads, modern steel panel radiators. The lower the supply temperature you size them to meet design heat loss, the better the comfort and versatility. Since the panels get larger the lower the design supply temp, noticability increases concurrently with comfort.

After modern panel radiators, true radiant baseboard, e.g. no provision for convection. Required supply temp will likely be quite high without an extremely efficient shell. Comfort probably won't be as good as any of the above, but noticeability can be kept to a minimum--especially in spaces with "minimalistic" design.

After true radiant baseboard, cast iron baseboard. Comfort scale continues to reduce--still decent, but nothing like radiant panels.

After cast iron baseboard, copper fin baseboard. Kind of the bottom end of hydronics. Some can be flimsy--choose quality construction as it won't cost much more and will last longer while looking good for longer... If supply temp reset and constant circulation are used, comfort can be maximized.

After this, you're essentially reduced to forced air.

So-called "hydro-air" is VERY limited in its' ability to achieve high efficiency. IMHO the most advanced furnaces are superior. ALL air systems are at the bottom of the "comfort" and "noticibility" scales!!!

Weezbo

the Best Heating system is Free*~/:)

if it is Free and it doesnt cost anything to run,it is the best.:) however, if you have control of it that would be an added Plus:)

Christian Egli_2

Which radiator gives you the biggest BANG for your buck?

Choosing a radiator is a highly personal matter, and there is no universal answer to each individual preference.

Me, I love baking myself in front of the steam filled radiator while keeping the home temperature generally very low (and thus healthily plenty moist enough). This is similar to the cozy and romantic effect a wood stove has. It's always all on, or all off.

I remember a Calvin and Hobbes strip where the two are enjoying life at the fullest running in and out of the house, first broiling themselves to a sizzle in front of the fire place, then cooling themselves by laying in the melting snow. Add hot chocolate and I'll be there joining you.

You can't get this effect, neither as fully nor as easily, with either baseboard or floor heat. Though you can get the full effect with forced air -and gravity air in particular- the resulting dryness is disastrous to your skin. Thankfully, you're not asking us about forced air.

What I really like about baseboard is the simple elegance of such an ingenious delivery system. Beautiful. It is a typically uncomplicated American idea unknown in European homes. The result is the same near totally draftless heat a floor system provides, and the baseboards have the big advantage of the same quick response radiators provide.

Floor heat, of course keeps your feet hot. If you live in a high rise building, you get the same effect from all the walls and all the floors being at the same temperature your neighbors are at. (Thus, such buildings get floor heat comfort without actually having floor heat). And if you are moving out of such a place to build your new home, radiant floor heat would be an appropriate re-creation of this comfort.

For a home retrofit cost considerations, radiators are a simple job to place anywhere you wish, one pipe steam installations being by far the most unobtrusive install. A baseboard loop is real easy as well. A floor heat redo will be more work but perhaps easy enough to do just in the kitchen and living room.

For a new home, radiant floor would be the obvious first thought. But I wouldn't forget to plan on localized peak heat.

Depending on where you live and on how hectic the weather can be on a daily basis, a slow to respond system will leave you with two bad things: first, the very real overheating of your home that can cost you much money, and second, the limited ability to reap the full savings that come with nighttime temperature setback. Extensive electronic control are a must for such applications.

See why steam filled radiators provide you with just the unoppressive comfort you want. Heck, even a poorly maintained steam system gives you a lot of banging for your buck.

John L

The Beat??????

There are merits to all suggested systems and I know from past visits to this forum those who responded KNOW that of which they speak, however, me thinks, with all due respects to these professional contributors,that they speak too hastily. Let's step back a little and ask one or two questions. The question asked can be answered by "It depends" and there in lies all the best possible answers.
Is it new construction with all the possibilities open for any particular system? What's the budget? is it a remodel?What type of room/space is available to run piping,radiant,baseboard,radiators or ductwork? What are the expectations of the homeowner with regard to efficicency, indoor air quality, dehumidification, humidification, are there any health isues to be addressed? Is there a code requirement for outside air? I could go on but you get the point. Whenever I go out to estimate work these are the issues I want to address so that I can determine what is the best solution for each particular job. Inpast posts here when the dreaded question of "how much does a boiler/furnace cost the response I have seen usually say that "It depends". I think the same applies here. My 2cents.

GMcD

Best heating system

Is the one that doesn't need maintenance, has no moving parts and provides the most energy saving, bar none. That is the building envelope- the wall, roof and especially the glass. The windows and glass are by far the best heating system in the house. High performance glass keeps the heat loss minimized while allowing passive solar gain if the orientation is done properly. There are enough heat gains inside the house that even in the Canadian Prairie climate, you can design a house without an active heating system. The Swedes have already done it, and it is becoming mainstream over there. Ever hear of the "2 litre house" in Germany? It's a house which consumes a total of 2 litres of heating oil a YEAR. Heating system contractors and designers HAVE to become building envelope experts for the next stage of this industry.

Weezbo

Geoff That is so straight . Its LASER razor. *~/:)

in a few months we are into spinning in a Earth Ship (PAHS) type home. I am into radiant everything and BTU redistribution....the collection side i would say is fairly important and the storage and release another. to me it is the largest storage system of solar gain that i have ever dealt with ...i am thinking that it shouldn't have a garage ....every garage door that we have modified or built proved to be disappointing ....

KAG

Best systems

Top 10 reasons FORCED HOT AIR is never the best.
#10 Wind chill Factor. See definition of convection
#9 Properly Installed? You mean Cheapest Installation!
(feeds and returns located on same floor or ceiling, keep fighting physics.)
#8 Humidification or mold sponing ground
#7 Zoning install seprate systems or dumping controls. Ya that's cost effective.
#6 Dusting a daily job
#5 "Just Add H2O" Great book a must read. THANK YOU Dan Holohan.
#4 Wife does not wear grandma's PJS (SHWING!!!!)
#3 Go to home store and check out filter selection or just buy kid's beach toy set. You know the plastic bucket set with the platic filter. Oh I am sorry that is for sifting sand.
#2 Did I mention no more granny pjs (STILL SHWING!!!)
AND THE #1 REASON It is called a HOT air system for a reason, and are we not in the business of warming people w and not the air.

AGAIN THANKS DAN "JUST ADD H2O" BRILLILENT
PS CAN WE GET SPELL CHECK ON THE WALL LOST DICTIONARY

Constantin

It depends... on a lot of things

As Mike put it, an ideal heating system will keep you comfortable, will be dependable, run efficiently, and won't break the bank to get installed.

An ideal heating system starts with the home, as the two have to complement each other. The architectual elements ought to be sensible, the insulation and weatherization ought to be thick and tight. Once you minimize heat loss/gain your universe of techniques to heat and cool the place expand dramatically. Now that the home is ready to accept whatever heating system you desire, you'll need to consider budget and whether you want to heat and cool the place.

A forced-air system is a simple way to heat and cool a home. When done properly, most occupants seem to be happy. In my limited experience of visiting homes, forced air systems did not tend to work well due to several reasons:

• register placement
• air velocities
• temperature swings

Register location has a lot of bearing on the effectiveness for heating or cooling. The locations are frequently driven by architectual/interior design issues, not optimal operation in heating or cooling.

A forced-air system that is asked to heat and cool is typically hamstrung by the different heating and cooling loads that rooms impose on the heating and cooling system. As a result, duct sizes can be off between the seasons by a great deal. Using dampers, microzoning, etc. can address that issue to a certain extent, but usually not fully.

Forced-air systems that do not benefit from being run with variable-temp emitters (i.e. hydro coils and chiller systems) may exhibit "puffing" of hot and cold air as their range of modulation tends to be pretty narrow. This is especially true if the zones are quite small compared to the total capacity of the system and they have very different demand profiles from each other.

To varying degrees, multi-speed blowers, multiple-stage burners, etc. can help overcome these issues, particularly if the home heating/cooling system is designed well. However nothing gets around the fact that heating/cooling an insulator like air is less efficient than doing the same with something like water.

You can use use radiant to heat and cool a place, though careful environmental control is a must. Ideally, insulate a place to the max, then take advantage of a ceiling capillary system to provide heating and cooling. Dessicant wheels and humidifiers in conjunction with a small HRV system then allow humidity control in the summer and wintertime. Dewpoint sensors prevent the system from running in rooms where the windows or external doors have been left open.

The main advantage of such a system besides comfort is that the heating and cooling of a room can be easily throttled to match the demand. The pipes required to move the water are quite small compared to ducts and thus fit well into older homes. However, finding someone who has gained the experience to do such jobs several times in residential settings is rare.

A more pedestrian approach is a radiant floor and AC system, allowing the floor to heat the house during the winter and the AC to cool it during the summer. Such an arrangement allows the AC system to be optimized for summer operation and the RFH system for winter operation. You'll loose a lot of interior space, even if you resort to mini-splits.

Another question with respect to radiant floor heating is the placement/type of the emitters. Ideally, use Warmboard in new construction, it has the best thermal transfer and response in the business. For retrofit jobs, staying above the subfloor offers lower emitter temperatures and better responsiveness but at a price.

For relatively inexpensive radiant floor heating installs, you can work your way all the way down to suspended tubes in rafter bays at the bottom end of the radiant market which will cook quite nicely in design-day conditions but will do relatively little to heat the space above. In the right house/climate, even they will work, however.

Getting specs and costs is a dicey proposition at best. It depends on so much, between the house, the emitter system, etc. Use the Find a Pro system to get in touch with a local contractor that can give you a hands-on assessment of what can be done. Find the best contractor you can, because the quality of the install will do more for you than any brand names that a hack may throw at you. After all, even the best of equipment can be defeated by incompetent hands and minds.

Lastly, once you have a contractor you can trust (seen the picture of past installs, called references, etc.?) look for a system that he/she is familiar installing and maintaining. Local supplies for parts are a big plus, particularly for heating-related items in cold climates.

SVDW

Comfort

My wife thought I was nuts to include radient heat into our home renovation. Now she complains about going over to her parent's, friends, office because of the comfort she's become accustomed to. She finally admitted I was right, game over! Radient wins IMHO. (She tossed the flannel jammies too... SCHWIIIING!)

rb_6

IAQ + ICQ = IEQ

IAQ + ICQ = IEQ
See Geoff's comments on bldg eff & ICQ.

ttekushan_2

Scorched Air methods

My main complaints about forced air are unfortunately inherent in the medium. viz: No radiant component; turbulence (the "wind chill factor" mentioned earlier).

In another thread, the concept of displacement cooling was mentioned. This is the method of cooling that uses lower velocity but constant cool air flow supplied low in the room, pushing the hot air out the top. Because we are following rather than fighting the natural flow of air, greater comfort and efficiency is attained.

Another fact that came to mind (bear with me here) is the implementation of two pipe steam using hot water radiators where the supply is on TOP and return on the bottom. This allows the steam to DISPLACE the air in the direction it naturally wants to go without turbulence, and somewhat greater efficiency.

See where I'm going with forced air heating? Wouldn't it be better to gently push the warmer air in the TOP of the room with special attention paid to the size and effectiveness of the floor level returns?

There would be little turbulence, very little wind chill, but still no radiant. This constitutes an improvement, regardless. I still agree overall that forced air is all wrong. But I think we've been doing forced air all wrong on top of it. And we all know about two wrongs.....

-Terry

Bruce M.

Best System

IMHO radiant heat in the ceiling using copper is the best heating system that I have seen and felt. My plumber friend whose father was a plumber built his house 50+ years ago and the original ceiling radiant works like it was new. It is the best there is. I have oil fired baseboard in my own house and there is little comparison. I believe Radio City Music Hall is heated with ceiling radiant.

Gordy

Yup !

Thatsa what I hava from circa 1952. Lotsa copper 6" on center. Still has the original Taco Paneltrol mixing valve. Do you think mixing valves last like that anymore?


Gordy

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Too bad the the wet wall (true multi-coat plaster) work you really need for such a system is a nearly dead art. There were some early plaster failures with such systems until the plasterers figured things out.

Gordy

Agreed Mike

Tis a lost art. Although I have a friend who is a very good plasterer. They are few, and far between. I believe the mass of the plaster in the older type of ceiling radiant systems hold an edge, do to the mass of the plaster. All though it is not to say that the new technology of a ceiling radiant system is not worthy.

I have not experienced a newer style of ceiling radiant system. So I'm not an expert on the difference between the two. I know the piping is further spaced now days, but there is the addition of plates.

Gordy

Unknown

The ceiling surface doesn't care how the heat gets there. The only real benefit to heavy tubing/mass coverage is lower water temps.

Gordy

Water Temps

I understand Rob. Its hard to compare from a numbers stand point. My system runs at 115*supply 95* return at design, but my tubing is 6" on center through out the house. I know the mind set now, is to tighten up the spacing at the exterior walls losening up the centers as you move inward, and using plates. My thought is pex is cheap, throw in another loop, tighten up the centers, and get the water temps down for the best condensing benifit. Both will meet the load just tighter spacing as you say equals lower water temps.

Point I'm trying to make is more from a stand point of feel (comfort). Is the new standard of ceiling radiant methods comparible to the old. I have no doubt that a proper design heats the space, but is gypsum, pex, and plates as good as brown coat, skim coat, copper. Never experienced the modern version so I don't know. Insight please!

Gordy

Unknown

I'm surprised it runs so hot in your config.

I haven't experienced the old way, so I'm going on theory as much as you are. But, ultimately, the ceiling surface doesn't know what's heating it, it only knows what temperature it is. So as long as water temps aren't varying wildly.. sounds like they aren't... I can't imagine what the difference would be except for the PITA install of the old method, and a much higher material cost of the old method.

We're heating spaces just fine at 16" o.c. continuous with 1/2" PAP and plates through sheetrock at water temperatures comparable to or lower than your system. Obviously hard to compare apples to apples here.. but it tells me there doesn't seem to be much value in nostalgia here, we're doing just fine with the new methods

Gordy

Cost

Without a doubt my system is cost prohibitive today. 4500' of 3/8" copper tubing will buy alota pex,and plates let alone the wrestling match to install the copper If the house burns down I will be in the precious metals.

I'm sure I can get the temps down a ways. Just waiting for this boiler to kick the bucket so I can get me a MOD-CON. The NG cost may make me pull it out of service before its time.

Gordy

RianS

Radiant ceiling

Right on Bruce, I have only one customer with a system like that. Oil boiler copper radiant in the ceilings. 1800 sq. ft. and uses less than 400 gallons a year to heat it. We recently installed central air for him, let me tell you, that was a probject. We figured it would be best to drop down through the closets then out the walls for the supply registers. We had to install 1 supply in the kitchen ceiling and 1 in the living room ceiling, I am not kidding, the ceilings were 1-7/8" thick. I still cant believe he had a drawing for all the tubing and valve layout. Not only is the plastering a lost art but so is the layout drawings. Another thing that surprised me was the high R-value of vermiculite insulation. His attic has only 6" of up there. This home also has tubing in the bathroom floor and the wall behind the tub. Its a great system. Would love to install one some day but because of the cost it would be very unlikely.

[Deleted User]

It's all about MRT fellers...

and I'm NOT talking about the big guy with all the bling bling... I'm talking about Mean Radiant Temperature. And let me tell you, if left uncontrolled, like the clowns who don't insulate the floor joist cavities, and the Homoaner puts down nice thick European "throw" rugs that cover more than 75% of your emmiting face, and the basement doesn't drop below 85 degree F, now THAT is MEAN radiant temperature...:-)

When talkng about radiant and comfort, you must have full control at ALL times. If not, you WILL be UN-comfortable. Been there, seen that, try not to do it as much as I can..

Think about radiant in the angle and amount of radiant energy you block. Coming from above or below, the amount of energy intercepted, the radiant energy "shadow" projected by your body, is rather small. Have it come at you from the side, and your body "blocks" a significantly higher amount of radiant energy from the emitting source. Think of it as a flashlight beam. The bigger YOUR shadow, the more energy you intercept, the lower the emmiting surface temperature CAN be, but typically isn't. Like everything, we over kill in the name of stable set point. Non electric TRV's are the ticket there.

As for the perfect home system, how about one that receives a LOT of free energy, from the sun, that stores the excess energy below ground in the dry earth near or below the building being served. It establishes a new thermal radiant core. Kind of like what happens in a building where the boiler is kept hot all the time. Those units that are closest to the radiating heat source (boiler) have a higher MRT and operative temperature. They are the source for a lot of "free" btu's, and they dictate the point source for the internal energy gains.

If we shut that fossil fuel powered one down, and start another one (radiant heat source) in the basement that is controlled, we can significantly reduce our building energy demands, by keeping it in a comfortable state, and augmenting with auxilliary only when necessary. We could then use "state of the art" heat transfer equipment, like ground source heat pumps to recover the low density energy and transfer it into the house. I'm thing with a COP of 4:1 for most of the heating season. And NOT having to completely cover the roof of your hme with solar collectors either:-)

Seasonal energy storage charged with solar and GSHP technology from transfer. That's the ticket!

But I digress...

I agree with Bud. We hydronics people have a tendency to lean more towards our products, and rightfuly so. But the FAF people have come a LONG way with VSF technology, and their comfor levels HAVE increased significantly, and are APPROACHING those levels attain with wet heat, and we need to pay attention to what it is that the "enemy" (forced eror) is doing TO us. The alternative is to incorporate it as a part of our "total comfort package" and provide fresh, filtered, humidified, or de-humidified air and see what it can do FOR us...

The American consumer is pretty darned smart. They understand the need for HRV, and ERVs. Kind of tough to do without moving some air.

I'm all in.

ME

Gordy

Not the high R- value of vermiculite, because its only about 2.13 per inch so you are only talking r-12.78 plus what ever the rock lath adds say r-2. Its the limited back losses to the attic from the radiant. My attic has the same insulation although another 6" of fiberglass was thrown in.

Gordy

Steamhead (in transit)

Depends on the heat loss

and a bunch of other things. That's where we pros come in. Try the Find a Professional page of this site to locate someone near you. If you're in the Baltimore area, contact me.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

[Deleted User]

Well said...

from a well head:-)

Maybe I'll change my handle from ME to Wellhead... Wahddya think?

Wellhead

Steamhead (in transit)

Naaaah

why change what works so "well" ???

While we're on the subject, the owner of the "Biiiig Webster Type R System" that I posted about wants to build a guest house. Turns out it will be right next to a well house that was recently taken out of service. I'm thinking geothermal radiant and hi-v A/C, the source is right there......

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"