Water and soldering

Kniggit

those jelly plugs are still available from Barnnet their website is e-barnett.com

Ken C.

I’ve heard mixed opinions regarding how dry copper tubing and fittings should be before fluxing and soldering them. Of course, you want to drain as much water as possible, but sometimes there will be some residual water no matter what you do.

One plumber I worked for said it was critical for tubing and fittings to be absolutely dry before fluxing and assembling them. But I’ve seen many plumbers (myself included) just flux tubing and fittings that have some residual water on them. I’ve never had a problem doing this, as long as there is someplace for steam to escape.

This same plumber also criticized the common practice of dabbing additional flux on a joint if it doesn’t draw in the solder easily while soldering. He said this will only spread the solder around the shoulder or face of the joint, and not necessarily deep inside the joint.

The plumber who told me this is a well respected guy, but I’ve worked with a lot of good plumbers who didn’t share those beliefs when it came to soldering. I’d like to know what some of you guys think.

-Ken

[Deleted User]

That was a VERY wise man....

I'm in the same camp as him. Water and soldering do NOT mix. Think about the dynamics involved.

You clean the pipe and the fitting to remove....OXIDATION.

You apply flux to avoid.... OXIDATION.

Water in and of itself, causes..OXIDATION. Especially when it is super heated.

Flux is THE major # 1 reason for long term copper pipe failure. For the longest time, the CDA (copper Development Association) was condemning failed joints due to hydraulic erosion corrosion. One of their young scientist went back many years, looking at all of the failed joint samples and found that the actual cause of failure was FLUX CORROSION, not HEC as originally thought.

With flux, the old addage of "if a little bit does a little good, then a LOT should do a LOT of good" does not hold true. The least amount of flux, the better. As a matter of fact, when I'm demonstrating proper soldering skills in a school setting, I apply the flux using conventional (flux brush) methods, then I wipe the pipe and fitting off with a clean paper towel. If you hold up two cleaned pipes, one with the excess flux wiped off, and the other with no flux applied at all, you have to look VERY carefully to discern the difference. That is how much flux is proper and necessary.

Now, as to how to solder using the state of the art water soluable fluxes, thats a WHOLE different story. In the days of old, when petroleum based fluxes were the norm, and water soluable had not been invented, you could fry the CRAP out of the joint with your torch, and it would still tin and draw. These days, the flux has a real low fry point, where the joint goes dry and oxidizes. If you are not right on top of things, the joint will not tin and draw properly. As you are heating the joint, the flux goes through different stages. It starts as a paste, becomes a liquid, starts to bubble, then goes dry. It's just between the bubbling stages and the dry stage that you need to start applying solder and backing off the heat. Leave the heat on for too long before applying the solder, and you're screwed. And there ain't NO amount of "doctoring" with the flux brush that will revive the joint. Might as well start from scratch.

Now remember, if you are following the natioanl code, on potable water piping, you are REQUIRED to use water based fluxes. If you have water in the joint whislt soldering, it is disolving the flux and allowing the water to see the cleaned copper, which will oxidixe, and as we all know, oxidized copper will not tin...

If I find myself in a difficult situation whereby I can not get the joint perfectly dry to solder, I will consider the use of a non soldering technology, like ProPress or Shark Bite. If that is not available, we carry small wet vacs on our trucks for the specific purpose of applying a vacuum up stream of the soldering process to hold the water back long enough to solder the joint. I've actually put 1/4" copper into the end of my vacuum hose, stuck it into and through the face of a valve to stop water from getting to the joint, soldered the ball valve into place, pulled the 1/4" tubing out, and closed the ball valve to give my dry conditions.

Now you know more about soldering than you ever wanted to...

Then, there are compression type ball valves...Don't get me started:-)

Listen to your early mentor. Water and soldering do NOT mix, regardless of what other practicioners may tell you. Their "doctoring practice" may hold long enough to get through warranty period, but the joint will eventually fail the test of time, possibly causing catastrophic damages due to their negligence.

It is simply amazing what an uncapped 1/2" joint on the top floor of a 2 story home can do... Don't ask me how I know.

ME

Unknown

Soldering with water in the pipe

Although I do understand the reasoning about soldering with no water in a pipe , we are forced do it on a daily basis anyway ( water mains that don't hold or heating pipes that drip all day ) . I'm postive I am only one of thousands of people who solder pipes with a bit of water in them daily . They do hold as well as soldering dry pipes . The Turbo Torch for acetylene can work wonders with drippy pipes .

I wholeheartedly agree about the use of flux - a lttle dab will do ya . I see guys who flux the inside and outside of every joint and will flux the fitting after its sweat . I'll just smear around the pipe about 1/2 as far as the fitting will slip on and wipe it after sweating with steel wool .

jim lockard

thanks Mark

my one word answer PROPRESS. B-4 you can get the vac out of the truck and in to the house, I'm finished and packing my tools. Best Wishes J.Lockard

Unknown

Anyone know the name

of the blowback tool that has a rubber end you push into a pipe ? A blast from the CO2 cartridge pushes all the water out of the pipe . Saw it on an oil heat cares project and forgot all about it till this thread .

ChasMan

This thread!

Well as a DIYer.. gone are my days of hanging the torch on the pipe and boiling the water out like my dad taught me :-)

[Deleted User]

Ron Jr, sometimes...

a man's gotta do what a man's GOTTA do to get 'er done, and you my friend are a prime example of trail by fire. When working in adverse conditions on a regular basis, you develop skills that most people would not understand.

But if the world were always an "ideal place" to work, anyone could do it...

Keep up the great shoe horn work.

ME

[Deleted User]

Jet Sweat???

Comes to mind.

ME

jeb

how about a little bread in the pipe.

[Deleted User]

Only...

if YOU are willing to go through the building afterwards pulling aerators from faucets to clear the dough. Been there, done that, won't do it again.

I have better things to do than spend the day trying to remove crusty icky aerators to flush out Wonder Bread...

Besides which, it is ILLEGAL to put ANTYHING but water into a potable water piping system. Hey Yates, would legionella like to eat bread dough??? :-)

ME

Brian (Tankless)

Yup, as long as it's not

Whole grain :O)

Couldn't help myself.

Swampster.

Ed Lentz_2

I just saw an ad this morning on THIS site (By google) advertising a method to freeze existing water in a pipe to cause a blockage using CO2. Would work beyond 3" pipe. Thought it was interesting. From a HO standpoint

[Deleted User]

Done that too...

and let me tell you, there is NOTHING worse than having an ice plug, unplug itself while you are trying to work on the pipes.. It got WET in a HURRY:-(

Under proper and ideal conditions, it CAN be beneficial. THere are also pipe freezing machines available that don't consume any gasses or fluids. Quite a bit more expensive than the CO2 alternative, but will pay for itself with regular use.

It just depends on your needs and applications...

ME

Timco

The expanding "Jet Sweat" plugs work great.

Tim

jim lockard

Just keep

your face out of the way Tim as alot of pressure can be built when the water behind them goes to steam.Best Wishes J. Lockard

Ken C.

Is Nokorrode a water soluble flux?

Jim Bennett

Bread..

I got near 30 years in the plumbing arena, never put bread in a pipe yet.

J.C.A._3

Anyone remember...

The Dutch Finger tool? I keep a few on hand and use them to sweat in a ball valve so I can work further down the line if need be.

A 5.00 valve has saved HOURS of sitting and waiting for dry pipes. Just another tool in the bag O' tricks that I learned a LONG time ago. Chris

hr

Hodes

company used to sell a mineral oil gel type capsules. Shove it into the tube about a foot to slow the water. It would buy you enough time to solder the joint.

Simply heast under the capsule to melt and dislove it after the joint hardens.

Just don't carry them loose in your tool box

We used them all the time when I plumbed, and repaired frozen lines, in cold, big sky, Montana

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

[Deleted User]

In our neighborhood, thats called

a Dyke. Might get your mouth slapped, or..punched for saying it too loud.:-(

Dutch finger my a..

On second thought...NEVER MIND!!


ME

J.C.A._3

Left yourself....

WAY too wide open on that one M.E. I could probably get a half hour onstage from it.

H.R. What are these pellets you speak of? That is something I've not even heard of. Chris

Timco

Whenever possible I leave a tap open or some way to let it breath...I learned that by a near miss...as I did about those gel plugs you heat up & push in...One came oozing out in flames!!! scared the !@#$ out of me!!!

Tim

Weezbo

they lookie like licorice jelly beans

Kevin O. Pulver

I appreciate the knowledge

I rarely have a leak, but It makes me wonder how many joints I get too hot and just have a cap on top that will fail later. A couple years ago I took apart one that leaked and sure enough it hadn't tinned and taken. I figured then I must have fried the flux (as I had about in a previous post)and have been more careful since to heat slow, keep the torch moving, and apply the solder quickly. The only thing I take issue with is the wonder bread. I don't mind one bit removing a couple aerators from the faucets. It's a lot better hobby than fighting water. And frankly it's probably lots better than lots of the stuff that's already in the water... not to mention the mains outside. Call me an outlaw, call the cops, but at least I should be done soldering by the time they arrive. Kevin

EJW

Soldering

What type of solder & flux do you use? Do you use LP or Mapp? I've never used bread in 20 years. Shut off the whole house at the meter and take 2 gallons out of the hot water heater. You are leaving the heat on the joint to long if you are frying the flux. I don't really even give it much thought any more after getting a pro press. It is a incredible luxury in the service world and am glad I finally spent the clams to get one. EJW

[Deleted User]

Water Soluble NoKorode

I'm not 100% sure, but I think they make it both ways. Check with your supply house to be sure.

ME

JackFre

I did my piping work

before Propress came along. Rather than fight the water, if I couldn't make the joint easily, meaning the water was not going to boil off, I would give up in the interest of getting it done and cut a union into the line up-stream of the problem. The union was easier to make as the water would run out the end. The original joint was sweat and the union made up. That has gotten me out of a lot of difficult spots.

Ron Schroeder

Jack

I have done the same basic thing just using a ccf tee and brass plug, when it gets you out of a jam its whatever works