Commercial/Institutional ModCon Boilers

Brad White_9

Hey Gang-
Open question that goes not to home heating but commercial/institutional products.

I am seeking opinions and other names out there for what you consider to be the best yet competitive ModCon boilers in the 2MM BTU input range.

My company (consulting engineers) designs a good number of public projects. Private work too, but this goes to the rules of public bidding here in MA and elsewhere. Even in private work it is good to have three or so "Equals" for competition.

Many say, school projects, opt for the more efficient condensing boilers and good for them. The question is, with the number of manufacturers out there, it is difficult to get an "equal". The specifications if performance-based have to be so wide to allow different means and methods. The installation experience and track record, warranty and service are also big issues. Those of you on the installing side have seen it all, collectively if not individually.

Here is a rundown of what our company is proposing for guide specifications (tailored to each job of course), as comparable, with comments:

Aerco Benchmark (2MM input) -a favorite of many school systems and has been made proprietary in some districts.


Viessmann Vertomat (new "Vito" name escapes me now). Competitive by using fewer but larger units versus more smaller units. Savings on venting hook-up this way. 30 psig ASME limitation a drawback versus 60 psig institutional standard. Lowest pressure rating of the group. PHE required unless plant is in the penthouse or it is a 1-2 storey or generally low building.


Cleaver-Brooks "ClearFire". 1.8MM BTU input, 90% of others, not exactly "equal". Seems to have a good track record in France. New to US Market about 2 years.

Hydrotherm KN series: Cast Iron Condensing. I know, I know.. Ken Cohen design (KC series by Aerco). Solid company. Seems to have merit when you see the materials, but new to market. Excellent warranty, 20/21 years. Not sure if pro-rata.

Fulton Vantage (3MM input). New to market. No opinion.

Lochinvar IntelliFin, and other backpack boilers we do not consider true "from the ground up" condensing designs, so do not have them on this list.

Are there any others and what might your thoughts be? Off-line if you prefer.

Thanks guys!

Brad

Paul Pollets

Vertomat!!

The Vertomat is the most efficient condensing commercial boiler. It's easy to install and the control package is "plug and play". It's extremely easy to service and will provide significant energy savings. Viessmann has a software program available for commerical applications that will do fuel cost analysis. Available from the Viessmann commercial boiler room seminar, or your Viessmann rep.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Brad White_9

Thanks Paul

Very well familiar with them, and agree fully that they are the Gold Standard (orange and silver standard in 316T SS, truth be told). Limit on pressure as stated is the only concern.

Price is settled in the bid environment and total installation cost so I let those chips fall where they may.

My question really goes to if I am missing other boilers that while not Viessmann and the others might be worthy competition and a name I may not yet have heard of.

But your endorsement is welcome at this address!

Brad

Uni R

2MM Modcons

Some others...


Buderus SB615

Camus Dynaflame

Gasmaster GMI 2M

jerry scharf_3

gasmaster industries

Don't know anything about them, but they sure sound impressive.

jerry

Brad White_27

Gasmaster

We had the rep come in our office about two years ago, Jerry. Seemed like a nice product but had one glaring deficiency in our opinion that made it a tough sell for competitive bidding. It has an extraordiarly high pressure drop, over 30 feet at the flows we were seeking. Large coiled water tube.

Sure it can be compensated for but if competitive and it comes to a substitution time, there is the ripple effect of pump heads, electrical power upgrades and such (or else you go to primary pumps and leave the secondary pumps about where they were). So there was this parasitic energy expense we could not reconcile. All of the other products were about 5-8 feet of head in water tube designs and next to nothing in firetube designs.

Otherwise, they seem well made, good materials and heat water efficiently.

mark smith

the Vertomat burner integrates poorly with the tekmar controls ..

the communications between boiler controllers is "iffy"
the burner has 1950's technology in combustion control
the burner has european spec Landis & Gyr controls which you can't source locally ..

what brainwashing session did you go to at the factory

mark smith

gasmaster ..

another product with mixed reliability reviews ...

Brad White_27

Sure it was not

Bass Master?

Brad White_27

Viessmann

The Weisthaupt burner is the key to the Viessmann Vertomat success. Have not seen Landis and Gyr controls in years. They use Siemens AG (so does everyone else in der Vaterland). And who uses Tekmar when you have the Viessmann on-board system (Dekamatik?) Generally the systems where these are deployed have DDC controls, not Tekmar, and the boiler plant can stand alone if it needs to. We just start/stop/enable and do setpoint ajustment via the network.

mark smith

Dude ,...

you have been given the hype...

tekmar makes the decamatic, or is it now Tour Andersson...

i started some Vert'sin 2003, had Landis & Gyr .. motor driven prorammer

mark smith

nooooo, Brad ...

i work on this stuff every day ..

S Ebels

Hmmm

I thought the only people allowed to do startup on Viessmann commercial equipment were factory people from Viessmann. Did you work for them in 2003?

"Vertomat burner?" There is no Vertomat burner. Viesmann uses Weishaupt or Riello, used to be strictly Weishaupt. Is somebody blowing smoke here?

Kevin__Flynn

Mark...

I suppose then you could explain the nice people at the Viessmann Plant in Allendorf that I witnessed assembling boiler controls. They must have been Tekmar employees that ran out of workspace in their own factory.

Also, according to you Tekmar controls don't integrate well with Viessmann's burners. You would think that if Tekmar built Viessmann's controls they would be able to find away around this. No?

Be careful when attempting to create rumors, Mark. Someone may actually know the truth!!!

Kevin Flynn

mark smith

nooooooo.....

i worked for the installing contractor .....

don't ya want the real story ....
a fancy factory trip ... is just that ....

mark smith

the .... Vertomat Boiler... Weishaupt Burner ...

integrates POORLY ...
with the Control System ....

i've wired 6 Vert's ...

how many have YOU ...?????
what ...???
happy now ...???

would you like the pissed off customers phone # ...???

viessman aint god, boys ...

S Ebels

Help me understand something



"the Vertomat burner integrates poorly with the tekmar controls .."

What is a Vertomat burner? I have only seen Weishaupt and Riello used on Vertomat boilers.

How does a burner integrate poorly with a boiler? As long as the flame is confined in the combustion chamber, I'd say integration is pretty good. No?

What was the customer PO'd about specifically?

mark smith

riello ...???

i work on 2mm btu and up to power plant equipment, steve

there ain't NO riello ....

are you a Burner Mechanic ..??

I am steve

whats Your point
i don't work on residential crap, Son

mark smith

how many institutional jobs have You installed....??

i think we are probably at ...

Name One Institutional job you have installed, aren't we ...??

S Ebels

Riello

R series Low-NOx, oil, gas and dual fuel up to 7,000,000+ btu's

RLS series, modulating gas and 2-stage oil up to 5.3million

R series gas up to 8.6 million btu's.

Pardon my ignorance but I thought those inputs were generally associated with commercial type equipment.

Just for your information, Viessmann offers Riello burners on the Rondomat and Vertomat boilers. They are usually considered to be commercial but I have seen a few homes that required 3-4 million btu's.

No point, merely adding a little info to the conversation. No one, including myself knows everything or has all the answers.

Kevin__Flynn

Well Mark...

...you certainly established that you've spent your fair share of time in institution's...

...however, you have conveniently neglected to defend your position on Tekmar/Dekamatik.

Is this your style, throw out a couple of ridiculous claims and hope no one notices?

Now, if by wiring the Weishaupt burners you mean taking the 3 whips & connecting them to the burner, I've wired a few as well.

Could you offer up the condensing equipment you do like or are you just a glass half empty kind of guy?


Kevin Flynn

Constantin

yes, but...

... at least you and kevin have the grace to back up your assertions with observations and/or facts instead of

• stringing a bunch of catchy one-liners together
  
• insulting the livelyhood of 90%+ of the contractors who frequent the wall (as if working on residential vs. commercial equipment is "crap")
  
• making assertions w/o proof that fly counter to the observations of respected luminaries on the wall
  
• etc.

Until Mr. Smith can come up with anything beyond innuendo as to the strengths and weaknesses of various burner/boiler combinations, I'm going to apply a rather large piece of salt to anything he writes.

For all we know, Mark is not a burner mechanic but a manufacturers representative. It's too bad really, considering how much value he could theoretically be adding to the thread if he has the knowledge and the willingness to do so.

mark smith

225,000 #/ hr ...

is what I consider ...a Real boiler

not some tin can

S Ebels

Has anyone played with

The new king sized Matrix burner Viessmann is using on the Vert's? Judging from how the Matrix works on the Vitodens, this setup ought to be about as far as you can take combustion technology on a mid sized commercial boiler. I'd love to get my hands on one of those and see what it will do.

S Ebels

Brad

Check out Patterson-Kelley. I think they have a MC package that fires at up to 1Mil. Pretty much the same design as their N series with a secondary HX IIRC.

http://www.patkelco.com/pkboilers/mach3.shtm