Need an almost dead man

Anthony Menafro

Yes, BAD idea. The system was designed with traps in place so you can't just remove them and expect the system to work properly. Stay with "Find a Professional" and be saved a lot of heartache.

Anthony Menafro

uli

Just moved into an old house with a two pipe system. Many of the valves don't work, and most of the traps need to be changed too. The plumber who looked at it told me that he would recommend to remove the traps since they are no longer necessary with boilers like oil-boilers, which don't run all day.
I have my doubts about that evaluation. Would people agree to exchange the traps rather than removing them?
Also, is there an almost dead man, meaning a knowledgable steam heating professional in the Morristown area of NJ who might be well suited to do this work?
Getting desparate to find someone with knowledge and interest to fix a system like this rather than putting bandaids on.

Thanks!!

Brad White_26

Steamhead!

Still has a pulse... And many, many good years left.

If not to do the work, certainly for an opinion...

DanHolohan

Have you tried

Find a Professional?

uli

Yes, just tried "find a professional", and was surprised there is no one closer to my area. Will contact the two within distance though. Thanks.
But what about removing the traps? Bad idea?

Brad White_26

If the traps were there originally, Uli,

I could not see removing them. They serve an essential function, rather several. They are the boundary between steam and condensate. They assure that the steam in the radiator is fully spent, done all the work it can do, before being released for re-heating.

If the fail open or cease to exist (and there is no means to separate the steam side from the condensate side such as a seal), steam enters the condensate return line which places it under pressure. Condensate from other radiators cannot enter and hence backs up. Effective heating stops.

You can obtain kits to replace the "guts" of the traps while saving the bodies. Seek out Tunstall Associates and Barnes & Jones. Both make trap inserts for most any trap ever made.

Boilerpro_3

An alternative to traps

comes down from history. The Moline System used no traps on the radiator return and orifice plates on the supply.
Today, you can use orifice plates and a sensitive pressure control to control the system pressure. The orifice plates meter the steam into each radiator and limit it to the amount it can condense. Since no steam makes it to the outlet, no trap is needed. This also allows the radiation and boiler to be resized to the current heating needs. This has been shown to be a real efficiency booster.

Boilerpro

Steamhead (in transit)

Thanks, Brad

Uli, that's probably a Vapor system and any alterations must be done by a real pro who understands Vapor. I would also fix the traps- however, depending on who designed the system it might have both orifices (which might be built into the valves) and traps too. Have you found any names on those old valves and traps, or on any devices in the piping around the boiler? Post some pics if you can.

Vapor was the Cadillac of heating in its day and is still one of the best systems out there. Keep yours in good shape and it will reward you with years of efficient, trouble-free comfort.

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Brad White_26

I have always found that concept interesting

but wonder can a given system be readily converted without a lot of major surgery?

The notion of fixed orifices (plural: orifi?) always seems to cry for precise engineering in what I would consider a dynamic system. IOW of you valve off a radiator (CV or manual) you would upset the apple cart. I am sure they work beautifully when in order.

I will have to crack open Dan's TLAOSH again soon for another immersion.

Always learning,

Brad

Constantin

Listen to the pros that know steam, Uli,

My fellow homeowner guess is that the plumbing contractor likely does not understand Vapor systems and therefore wants to replace your system with something he does understand, unless he is suggesting a Moline setup as Boilerpro mentioned below. Trap or no trap, I would find a steam genius to get your Vapor system back to the purring-like-a-kitten stage.

Boilerpro_3

Not really problematic

As long as you control the pressure to the system, they work great and there are thousands of systems out there with them and more are being added daily. I have an magazine article T.P. Tunstall forwarded to me aabout a buy that has done over a thousand apartments on the East coast, all with excellent results. Apparently many have also replaced boilers and reduced the boiler capacity....a pick up factor of only 0.1, and seen substancial fuel savings and excellent comfort.
I haven't made the conversion yet, but have worked on a few Moline systems and they work great. Oh course they also use steam pressure to suck the air out of the system using a venturi....another concept that could be applied to two pipe systems.

Boilerpro

Brad White_9

So the Moline

is a quasi vacuum system then? I have seen one or two over the years, a steam jet venturi in the return. Wish I paid attention back then.

They do seem to be an excellent steady-state system. Thanks, Boilerpro!

Doug Oest

Help me Steamhead, please

Could take a look at my thread on "Vapor System"? Take a look at the pics. It's an old GE downfired boiler being replaced.

It looks like a Trane Vapor system. I'm not sure what to do with that little vent. When the new boiler goes in, everything should be left alone except for the near boiler piping. But I'm not sure what to do about that little vent.

Please take a look at the pictures and let me know your thoughts.

THANKS!!

Mad Dog_2

Remove the traps???????????????????????????

Remove that man from your house. We consult in Jersey. If its South Jersey perhaps Steamhead can do it for you. Here to help. Mad Dog

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Weezbo

i hate to say this buh...

if you start in pulling the traps off You may be the one wearing the bandaids.not the system.

jackchips_2

One more

?, Matt and some people might think you were MAD.

Sound advice.

Mad Dog_2

I earned my Moniker for good reason,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

"when all about you are losing their heads,,,and you are calm....YOu just don't understand the situation." author unknown. Mad Dog

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Steamhead (in transit)

I just

answered your e-mail- check it out.

When that system was designed, Hartford Loops had not come into use. We simply add the Loop to the old piping, per the boiler makers diagrams.

Can we get a close-up of the "little vent"? I saw the Return Trap but not the vent.

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Boilerpro_3

Not Quasi, originally

With a coal boiler, I understand they could boil water down in the 140F range. That's one bodacious vacumn! Maybe someday someone will get a chance to use a modulating burner on one of these systems and get it working that way again. But for now, just using the venturi as a suction pump works very well. Just make sure to get a huge vent on that condensing pipe or radiation in the basement.

Boilerpro