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Vapor System

HI, Nice pics.

I have a vapor system, Broomell type. I am no expert. From what I learned by reading here and elsewhere.

Dan has a post on this site about changing Broomell system boilers, and reccommends leaving the boiler piping and receiver intact, just cut the chain on the receiver. As I understand it, the purpose of the float was to regulate the firebox draft, nothing else. Would think the system would operate fine without the float. The receiver allows the dry returns to vent out the chimeny (which supplies draw and is isolated from the openning in the top of the receiver thru a p type water trap.) The condensate drains into the receiver thru the p-trap into the boiler. If you are not using the receiver to regulate the boiler , its height relative to the boiler water line would be less critical. Still want to protect the vent and the condensate drain.

As to the radiators, there has to be something to reguulate the amount of vapor into the radiator which is usually limited to about 80% of what the radiator could condense. This prevents most steam from reaching the other end simplifying the trap needs. So the valve should be of the orifice type or a restruicting orifice is installed between the valve and radiator either of which will be sized to the radiator. The elbow trap may have a sump type profile or some internal orifices and an elbow projecting into the radiator.

My 2 cents.
Tony

Comments

  • Doug Oest
    Doug Oest Member Posts: 34
    Vapor System (could use your help Dan)

    Well, Jim Roche is retired. Glenn is resting up. So, I have a challenge with this one. I been researching page 257 of Lost Art. What I THINK I have is a Trane Vapor System. The reciever, I'm told is a Trane 411. But this system also has what I think is a vent and a line that goes into the chimney (another vent). Take a look at the pics.

    One thing I'm working on is getting pictures of the radiators. This system does not have traps on the radiators and I want to know if the steam supply side of the radiator has those special handle valves with the orifice in them or if they have those union elbows with the upper and lower orifices in them.

    To install the new boiler, the old reciever must still be used. I'm afraid if the float ball has a hole in it, that I won't be able to find a replacement for it. Or for that matter, a replacement for the little vent.

    If anybody has any experience with these old old systems, please lend a hand and give me a few pointers? Can I get a Hoffman replacement for the little vent? Should I remove the line into the chimney and put a vent on it?

    Here's some pictures too.

    Thanks guys.
  • soot_seeker_2
    soot_seeker_2 Member Posts: 228
    Vapor

    HI, Nice pics.

    I have a vapor system, Broomell type. I am no expert.

    But Dan has a post on this site about changing Broomell system boilers, and reccommends leaving the boiler piping and receiver intact, just cut the chain on the receiver. As I understand it, the purpose of the float was to regulate the firebox draft, nothing else. Would think the system would operate fine without the float. The receiver allows the dry returns to vent out the chimeny (which supplies draw and is isolated from the openning in the top of the receiver thru a p type water column.) The condensate drains into the receiver thru the p-trap into the boiler. If you are not using the receiver to regulate the boiler , its height relative to the boiler water line would be less critical. Still want to protect the vent and the condensate drain. My 2 cents.
    Tony
  • Doug Oest
    Doug Oest Member Posts: 34


    Thanks Tony. I understand about the chain regulating to draft. I think that chain is long gone here. Did you see the picture of the little vent? I'm trying to figure out what to do about that when I go to the new boiler. Is that little vent to vent air out of the reciever?

    Thanks for your help!
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,487
    Read all about it

    Trane Vapor Heating>

    I've said it many times, but I'll say it again. It pays to wander off the Wall.
    Retired and loving it.
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,089
    trane vapor

    Replaced one not long ago and we did remove the reciever and the 2 check valves ,re pied the boiler with the proper sized header and added air vents to the supply main and to the dry returns before dropping to the wet return .This sytem was originally coal then oil then a leaker then replaced .We have had no promblems at all with it set up this way but i would advise you maintane the same water line as the existing one and over size your header ,use a vapor stat instaed of the pressuretrol ,I would look around this system had all remote traps located in the basement below the convectors .peace and good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Doug Oest
    Doug Oest Member Posts: 34
    More Questions

    Hey Clammy, thanks for the response, but now I have conflicting stories. You said you took out the return trap and the check valves and everything was fine. Dan recommends leaving that stuff in tact.

    The Trane manual, page 11, describes a vapor system similar to the one I'm working on, but mine doesn't have traps on the radiators. The Trane manual shows them. therefore, I guess I have those orificed radiator handles that supply 80% of the radiators capacity.

    There was some tweaking to this system. The vent to the chimney was disconnected. There was a vent installed where that line went over to the chimney. The customer is complaining that they are not getting heat the way they used to. So, I'm very wary of what to take out and what to leave.

    I think what we need to do is leave everything the way it is and just replace the boiler, making sure the new water level is the same as the old boiler. I'm still not sure what to do with that "mystery vent" shown in the pics. I think it has to stay there, just move up that piping. The only other thing would be to change out that small air vent on the dry return to a larger one so it vents air faster.

    Thanks for your help!!
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,089
    conflicting

    I know there are alot of conflicting stories i personally would have left the return trap also except i was just called in to help aq buddy who did not to screw arond with it plus in any event ,when the unit was coal fired the return trap would use steam pressure to put the condensate back into the boiler ,the new boiler was piped with a hartford loop and equilized and a pressurtroll that when she was coal fired did not have except for the draft box pulley to lower the fire and reduce the pressure plus that return trap would never let any real pressure build up in the returns .On the few brommwell and honeywell system systems i have replaced i did leave the return traps and differental loop espically on the honeywell but i have seen them removed on some systems and there where promblems some relating to water seals and excess pressure in the returns main thing is to pipe it with a over sized header properly and use a vapor tsat abd vent the system correctly peqace and good luck maybe other shall give a little more insight peace andf good luck clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
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