lifting condensate in a vari vac steam system.

Brad White_9

as an engineer. We have feelings too! They just come out in funny ways, that's all.

Sort of like saying contractors did not pay attention on career day and have no necks. (Stereotype, you DO have necks and make more money :) )

Agreed, some have that arrogance that makes them (us) seem like doctors or something. But not all of us.

In Good Fun,

Brad

gb

lifting condensate in vari vac steam system

Q:I had to make an chyange in elevation in a 4" steam line on a vari vac steam system. I installed an F&T trap at the bottom of the drip and piped it up (2 feet) into the vacuum return line.
I installed a chek valve and this has worked just fine for 3 months. The building has some existing problems (205 degree return condensate 3" vac etc)and the engineer has figured that my trap is the cause. He ahs informed the owner that this is the reason for all of their problems and you can figure out the rest.

I did this based on fact (or my assumption)that if I have 1.5 psig upstream of the trap or 3-5 inches vac on the reyurn I should have no problem lifting the condensate. I installed a hose on the strainer blowdown and showed everyone that the trap does not hold back water in the system but to no avail.

I have to now go back to install a condensate pump ( for free) to collect my money and hopefully move foward.

Before I die I have to know if there is any rational basis for the engineers comdemnation of this installation.

PS: The offset and trap were outside of the scope of work
and installed at no cost to the owner.

gb

Vari vac system question??????

Q:I had to make an chyange in elevation in a 4" steam line on a vari vac steam system. I installed an F&T trap at the bottom of the drip and piped it up (2 feet) into the vacuum return line. I installed a chek valve and this has worked just fine for 3 months. The building has some existing problems (205 degree return condensate 3" vac etc)and the engineer has figured that my trap is the cause. He ahs informed the owner that this is the reason for all of their problems and you can figure out the rest.

I did this based on fact (or my assumption)that if I have 1.5 psig upstream of the trap or 3-5 inches vac on the reyurn I should have no problem lifting the condensate. I installed a hose on the strainer blowdown and showed everyone that the trap does not hold back water in the system but to no avail.

I have to now go back to install a condensate pump ( for free) to collect my money and hopefully move foward.

Before I die I have to know if there is any rational basis for the engineers comdemnation of this installation.

PS: The offset and trap were outside of the scope of work and installed at no cost to the owner.

gb

Vari vac system question??????

Q:I had to make an chyange in elevation in a 4" steam line on a vari vac steam system. I installed an F&T trap at the bottom of the drip and piped it up (2 feet) into the vacuum return line. I installed a chek valve and this has worked just fine for 3 months. The building has some existing problems (205 degree return condensate 3" vac etc)and the engineer has figured that my trap is the cause. He ahs informed the owner that this is the reason for all of their problems and you can figure out the rest.

I did this based on fact (or my assumption)that if I have 1.5 psig upstream of the trap or 3-5 inches vac on the reyurn I should have no problem lifting the condensate. I installed a hose on the strainer blowdown and showed everyone that the trap does not hold back water in the system but to no avail.

I have to now go back to install a condensate pump ( for free) to collect my money and hopefully move foward.

Before I die I have to know if there is any rational basis for the engineers comdemnation of this installation.

PS: The offset and trap were outside of the scope of work and installed at no cost to the owner.

Brad White_9

George, I would tend to agree that

if you are maintaining 3 to 5 inches Hg. vacuum on the return side (1.5 to 2.5 psig) the lift should not be a problem lifting 2 feet. Trap is holding and the system did work in colder weather than we have now.

When was the trap installed? You mention "existing problems" which in context sounds like long-term ongoing issues of HT condensate. Whatever the cause, might there be some flashing when the condensate hits the vacuum?
My hunch says, solve the HT condensate and this goes away. Can you gauge the vacuum over time? If constant that is one thing. If it fluctuates and you read the temperature concurrently with that, it may indicate flashing. Just one thought.

If as you say it is holding, that should not be the issue.

Q1: The check valve: Where is that installed? Is it part of the trap assembly (low by the trap)? Or is it in the lift line? Thinking this PD might make the difference if in the lift line.

Q2: The lift line: One stage I would think. Close nipples or bona-fide lift fittings? Just trying to picture it better.

Barbarossa

Why not avail your self of the expertise of the trap vendors such as http://www.armstrong-intl.com or http://www.spiraxsarco.com/learn/ or the company who made the trap. This is easer then trying to do it long distance and I could not be much help from just the description. Engineers can be difficult; I would ask for his documented proof of his contention that that is the root cause of the problem then review it with the trap people and see what shakes out. Hopefully the Engineer is licensed in the state and qualified by both training and experience to beat up on a steam guy.

Barbarossa

I am almost speechless, you see I too am a PE but non-traditional as I worked steam in NYC for years on my way to that point in my career. The most impressive Engineers I met along the way seemed to have a little more dirt under there nails then most. I would always argue for training and experience over either by its self.

Brad White_9

Hear, hear!

Like you, I learn more from the guys with a wrench than a guy (or woman) with a slide-rule. OK, Calculator...

You know I was kidding, but it is true that any engineer had better be careful asking to spend anyone elses' money, contractor or not..

"I would always argue for training and experience over either by its self."

Well said.