steam heat v in floor radiant

Steamhead (in transit)

to install a new steam boiler and fix anything that's keeping the system from heating quickly. When a steam system is running properly it will provide efficient comfort. It also runs at much less pressure than hot-water and won't freeze up in a power or fuel failure.

Radiant in the floors is a very nice system, and has been shown to use a bit less fuel since convection in the rooms is minimized. But to install it in a house like yours, you need to open up the ceilings below the joists where the tubing is to go, and if something should go wrong with the tubing once the ceilings are closed up, you have to open them up again....... that's a lot of work and money. And the piping around the boiler is more complicated.

If that were my house I'd keep the steam.

JoeV

Steam heat V. infloor radiant heat

I have a choice to make and need your help/opinions. I need to choose between replacing an ancient steam boiler and installing an in floor radiant heat system in joist cavities.

Which system will provide a comfortable heat economically? The average winter temperature here is 35- 40deg. F.

JoeV

Thanks steamhead. Just to clarify, we're in a single story home and the tubing will be in the basement/crawl space.

Some of the radiant floor heat companies promise 20-30% fuel savings which is great these days but the quality of the heat is just as important too.

Kal Row

steam could actually be less to run...

the drawback of steam has always been 'you need to light up the whole house - even if you just want light in one room", however with radiant’s steady state design, it's almost the same thing (zones notwithstanding), so now we only need to compare the cost of 24hr steady state radiant to morning/evening steam – and, unless you want 24hr steam or the system is not up to specs - steam wins

by "up to specs" i mean all vents properly sized and working and all radiators exposed so that they can "ray--dee--8"!!!, "steam" is the original radiant!!! it was designed to keep people in the room warm even if the window was open – as long as they were within line of sight of the radiator – if you remember you school days – every one with nothing blocking between them and the radiator wanted the window open – and everyone else wanted it shut – the window preference wasn’t divided between male and female as heat usually is, but rather by visual proximity to the radiation

Steamhead (in transit)

If installed properly

radiant is extremely comfortable.

When you mention "radiant heating companies" I really hope you mean local contractors with a proven track record. There are some companies that are only on the Internet that offer to sell you the tubing but conveniently avoid the fact that the system must be properly designed and installed to work properly. This as you might expect has resulted in jobs that didn't work properly if at all.

And some of these companies advocate using water heaters instead of proper boilers, and using the same heaters for the radiant as well as hot faucet water. This, besides being against Code in many places, creates a Legionella breeding ground.

Finally, working in a crawl space generally takes much more time than in a regular basement since room is limited and most installers are not contortionists. This would increase the cost of putting tubing in there.

Whichever way you go, try the Find a Professional page of this site to locate someone near you.

JoeV

With regard to the steam system, I have a professional, with a proven track record, who will quote me on a replacement boiler. He has never done an in floor radiant but would be happy to make me his first customer.

I'm not too keen on being anyone's guinea pig. So, yes, my research on the subject is solely from the internet companies you mention. If I do contact the local pros, I want to know most of the answers to the questions I ask.

The way I see it, what ever I do, I can only afford to do this once. If I make the wrong decision,I'll be broke and my wife will kill me.

Steamhead (in transit)

Either way

you'll use less fuel, and if your wife is anything like The Lovely Naoko she will appreiate that.

hr

Has the steam system

been keeping you warm and comfortable over the years. Any complaints?

Hate to see you remove all that iron and plug all the holes in the floor...

You can do spot radiant floors with some of the electric cable or mat systems. Most are DIY friendly. You can have the best of both!

I sent some mat to my sister a few years back. She installed a small area in her kitchen during a tile remodel. She hired an electrician to wire and install the thermostat. She thanks me every winter for that warm tile kitchen floor

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Jamie_6

Joe,

Where are you located?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

JoeV

The steam system was simply the best heat hands down while it lasted. The boiler just died of old age and neglect from previous owner. No steam traps in half the radiators, Pressuretrol cranked up to 7psi...Which is why it was expensive to run and, I suppose, why the boiler couldn't hold its water anymore..

I like your idea of electric mats but I need to look into it more. It would have to be a staple up and not cemented in. I have two new rooms without radiators and it is not an issue to have a couple installed with the new boiler but if I could save the floor space...Thanks for the feedback.

Kal Row

you didn't say \"staple up\" - fuh-get-abow-it....

a new steam sys will be better -
or you might also consider new style panel radiation and a modulating/condensing boiler with lots of zoning (you can pipe to radiation with pex) - as long as the radiation is visibly exposed (usually best under windows) - it will work just fine - those new fancy panel radiators can accent any decor - and you can always add radiant to that system as you go along, like when you redo a room - you can lay down "aluminized radiant subfloor" and rip!!!

the relative thermal resistance of staple up is just too wasteful - and you need to have open ceilings to get it right, - you need up-facing aluminized insulation under it, and plates attached to the pex to spread the energy, and need to use lots of plastic/nylon clips to keep it quiet, as pex really expands and contracts – especially with “staple-up” where the water temps reach into the 150s – unless you are going to pump the water 24/7 and keep it within 10 degrees – and if you like to sleep cold, the cool down time is forever - this is not to say that “staple up” doesn’t have a place – it’s application and installation is much less forgiving than other types

also: (you can call me a chicken) – but I never installed radiant without forced air also for when you want a little more heat or for those instant response needs – and it’s nice to have a backup – as frozen out customers are a real bummer – you’d end up in front of “Judge Judy” so fast, you wouldn’t know what hit ya

sample fancy panels: (there are more)
www.mysoninc.com
www.runtalnorthamerica.com

Steamhead (in transit)

No wonder it was expensive to run

You have a Vapor system. This type of system was the Cadillac of heating in its day and is still one of the best out there. It vents air from the rads thru the dry (overhead) returns and out thru a central vent. But if steam gets into the dry return it will kill the pressure differential between the steam and return sides of the system, so the steam will not move. The usual knucklehead response is to crank the pressure up. Then the boiler has to work real hard and can expire from sheer overwork.

Fix the traps using replacement capsules from Tunstall or Barnes & Jones. Do them all since they're all the same age. Crank the Pressuretrol down- you only need about a half-pound in this system. Then watch how well it works. You should be able to add rads to the system if the piping will handle the load.

Have you found any manufacturer's info on your system (traps, valves, any ominous-looking hardware around the boiler etc.) that would help us identify who designed and marketed it?

JoeV

Thanks Kal, that's exactly the kind of info I needed. I suspected a staple job would not work well.

Thanks Steamhead, I need to replace the boiler. She gave up the ghost and is really too old to repair. And, even if it were repairable, too much cast iron to be efficient. It is an American Standard with Milwaukee valve Co traps. My contractor never mentioned anything about vapor systems...If I retrofit, can I ask for a boiler that would be a vapor system? Do they still make them? What do I ask?

Steamhead (in transit)

It's a \"Milvaco\" Vapor system

"Vapor" refers to the way the piping is designed so it will run at very low pressures. The boiler is a regular steam boiler. Try to duplicate the water line of the old boiler if you can, otherwise you might empty some water seals in the piping which can cause problems.

Now's the time to get a copy of Dan's book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating" if you haven't already. Chapter 15 is devoted to Vapor systems, and while the Milvaco isn't in there, it's pretty similar to some of the Dunham and Webster systems. But read the first few chapters first to get the basics. You can get the book on the Books and More page of this site.