Canada addressing CO topic

RoosterBoy

hires the secratary from fisheries to run the mechanical department and cousin billy bob the reckless playboy to make up rules and joe go by the book cant see the hazards because he so buzy worrying about a few screws the carpenters did'nt place just yet in a dishwasher What Are we to Expect? What a Joke!

Ever hear of the idea that there is at least one exception to prove the rule? All our appliances gas lp or oil have to have some indication that they have had combustion readings made and What they were at that time or no certificate of completion will be given for the occupancy. i dont have too much problem with that idea...however,when there is a full scale adoption of Rules that do not pertain to this century i have a problem with enforcing these wrong way charlie ideas...as they are often proven wrong not just mistaken...in the case of co Dead Wrong.

John R. Hall

Interesting tidbit

I thought this was interesting how one regulatory body is addressing the CO problem in Canada.

"TSSA Proposals May Place Restrictions on Natural Draft Residential Gas Boilers"

HRAI is continuing to participate in discussions with TSSA’s “Risk Reduction Group” on Residential Gas Boilers. As reported in the November 2004 Contractors Link, TSSA created this RRG to address the risks of carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning from natural draft residential gas-fired boilers. The move was in response to a series of CO incidents over the past few years (including a number of fatalities) that have been attributed specifically to these heating systems.

TSSA’s original proposal for dealing with this perceived problem (reported in the May 2005 Contractors Link)
included changing the Ontario Gaseous Fuels Code Adoption Document for CSA-B149.1-05 Code to require that such appliances be enclosed and separated from any inhabited space (including separate ventilation, etc.).

This change did not find its way into the Code Adoption Document, but there are other proposals that are still under consideration, including: a) a maintenance checklist that contractors would be required to follow upon servicing these appliances; b) a requirement to lock vent dampers in an open position whenever they are found; c) a requirement to retrofit these types of units with sidewall systems; and d) an educational awareness program directed at homeowners.

In addition to the concern expressed by some HRAI members, these proposals have attracted the interest of the
Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association (GAMA), which has expressed concern about their potential impacts.
HRAI is in discussions with GAMA to develop a consistent industry position on the matter and it is hoped that a
productive compromise can be achieved. The next meeting of the RRG will be on September 22nd.

For more information contact Martin Luymes at 1-800-267-2231 or (905) 602-4700 ext. 235; e-mail mluymes@hrai.ca.

Brian (Tankless)

That's gonna make waves

and stir up lots of discussion.

Lots of potential work for pro's, & not-so-pro's.

It is going to be contentious either way.

Contractors are going to have to PROVE they know what they're doing, knowledge of systems, combustion analysis, and be held accountable for their work etc'.

There will be some major "sorting the wheat-from-the-chaff" going on.

A lot of folk don't like Gov't intrusion, but death is forever, eh!

Bump.

Brian, in the path of yet another mass of swirling wind & rain. Rita, go away, we're tired of mother nature.

On my way out the door to get a generator and "stuff".

Keep up the good work, John.

Unknown

They just do not get it

everytime I see a proposed change to codes relative to CO I cringe. No where do they say anything about testing and proper set up of equipment. They keep putting bandaids on cancers and hope it will fix the problem. A recent change in Mass did the same thing, they want to install CO detectors on side wall vented equipment which is a good thing. They did not however address the proper testing of the equipment.

A recent panel I sat on this issue was debated and installers insist it is not there job to test gas equipment, they want the gas comapny to do it. Say did we not a few years ago want the utilities to get out of the service business. Now they want them to go back into it.

Tony Conner_2

You Need...

... to remember that the TSSA isn't national, but Ontario only. Many of us here think we'd be MUCH better off if they stopped generating new rules and made more of an effort to enforce the ones currently on the books.

John R. Hall

As I see it...

At least the general public is moving from ignorance to understanding -- in small steps. And someone in Ontario is stepping forward.

I'll call the glass half-full.

Tony Conner_2

Take...

... a drive over the Ambassador Bridge and talk to the gas fitters in Windsor. I'll bet they tell you what they think the glass is half full of

John R. Hall

Tony

Set it up -- I'd be happy to take the 20 minute drive from home. Seriously.

John R. Hall

Tony

Set it up -- I'd be happy to take the 20 minute drive from home. Seriously.

J.C.A._3

Timmie,

We call this the "vicious circle".(special thanks to my old boss who named his boat this!)

The people I heard complaining about testing were either unable to understand or.... unwilling to purchase the appropriate equipment for testing.Shame on them for not realizing both the added business opportunities or the resulting lack of lawsuits that will follow!

If you want to stay ahead of your "competition", You've got to provide service above AND beyond what they are doing. An investment in both training and equipment will keep you from being on the losing end of both scenerios. Ingnorance is bliss, but a stupid lawsuit could be devestating to both you and your business. Smarten up ! JMEO....Chris

thp_7

wat a jood of crap

Tony Conner_2

I'll...

... make some calls.

Dick Charland

A second to they don't get it!!



Timmie, Chris, many years ago in a prior life I testified before a national committee on another issue, prior to the item we were to address, a proposal had been made to require combustion test on an oil burner if a tech had performed service on the unit. I sat there flabbergasted as this group of "experts" decided it was not wise because it would be "too expensive" a requirement.

Reminds me of the old song, When will they ever learn...

Jim Davis_3

Here we go again

Canada wants to ban vent dampers and plastic flue pipes. They want to add power venters to appliances that will absolutely run dangerous if this is done. Educate the consumer? Wouldn't that require someone that actually knows something in the first place. Put the responsiblility on the consumer not ourselves. Ten years ago I was asked to leave Ontario and take my CO training back to the USA. Let the consumer defend themselves.

Steamhead (in transit)

That was

"Where have all the flowers gone". I don't remember who wrote it (Pete Seeger, maybe?) but it was a hit for the Kingston Trio in the early 1960s.

Hard to believe with all the publicity surrounding CO poisoning, no one wants to test anything! "Let the other guy do it" or "It's too expensive" are their mantras.

Too expensive for whom? Maybe the service managers who want their techs to do 8 "cleanings" in an 8-hour day?

John R. Hall

C'mon Jim

Weren't you spotted coming out of Casino Windsor recently? :-)

Bob Harper

caveat ventor

Let the venter beware!

I agree w/ Timmie & Co. Like Congress treating symptoms instead of the root cause. Taxachoosetts passed panic legislation on heresay before the case in question was litigated. The scuttlebutt was as much an installation issue and anything. However, placing combustion equipment into Confined Spaces, which require special makeup air systems, is kinda like picking up a rattlesnake--there's a way to do it but you have to ask yourself do you really have to do it in the first place? With houses getting tighter and makeup air systems being unreliable, this could prove disastrous.

The burden should be where it belongs-- on the company installing the equipment to sell the system that best meets the needs of the homeowner, mates with the house construction& dynamics, is properly installed and inspected by someone who knows what their looking at and a commissioning test is performed to verify proper performance not only under ideal conditions but worst case. Take a look at Europe. They don't put up with this crap and they have very few problems. The penalties for problems are too severe--money and licenses. We're still too soft.

My 10 cents worth-- the IRS just upped the rate 8 cents per mile til 31 Dec.
Bob

Kevin_in_Denver_2

direct vent

If I were in the business of boiler installation, I'd refuse to install anything other than sealed combustion with a sidearm water heater. Most consumers know CO is bad. I realize there are lots of customers that consider only price. But you don't want them anyway because they are:
1. Landlords who don't know/care about safety and will use the boiler room to store scrap wood, paint thinner, etc.
2. Super cheapo/ignorant homeowners who will feel a draft and stuff blankets into the fresh air supply ducts.
Who needs 'em?

Glen

my two cents ---

there is a holy trinity here in Canada; B 149 - 1 Gas Code, the authority having jurisdiction and the installer. IMO the gas code is the MINIMUM required installation edict. Further not all jurisdictions handle inspections equally with wide variances of training and/or experience required to be an inspector and lastly not all jurisdictions train to the same standard. We enjoy a "red seal" national certification program for plumbing, steamfitting, gasfitting etc but not all training and trade qualifications are accepted unilaterally across our great country. Why is this??? Because the powers to be can't agree on which body of knowledge our trades should enjoy before they can be called a journeyperson. Each province and in some cases, city by city all have their own idea of installation criteria ... and I am really talking about a 9 province issue; Quebec is really out on a limb given the language "barriere" and other issues re our Red Seal Program. Where does that leave us as trades people ... it gives us a wonderful opportunity to arm ourselves with the best information and data available. As the installer your're darn right that I am liable and fully responsible for the install, and that is a long term liability. Educate yourself here on the Wall - take a night school class, read voraciously, do not be satisfied that once that ticket is in your pocket you are fully equipped to tackle anything. Buy the best testing gear you can, train yourself in correct operation and interpretation of the data, be diligent. Yes, HO's will continue to pile up the paint cans in the boiler room, yes they will also continue to plug up the combustion air because there's a draught, yes they will tap into the gas piping to add a BBQ outlet on the deck - it's just gas right? We will never be able to eliminate all the bone headedness - whether its by the installer or the HO or the Inspector. But maybe, just maybe if we are diligent we can then learn what questions need to be addressed - and if Ontario has realised there is a problem - then let them debate the issue. I too agree with the above posts that they may not be asking the right question - but they are asking. This is a wonderful opportunity for all of us - on both sides of the 49th. Educate, educate, educate...

Unknown

Bob you are right on

the problem however is that those who make the rules and enforce them are policing their peers. They tend to not want to sit down real hard on those of their own trade. They will levy a fine of $100 on a job that was sold for thousands and the contractor reaches in his pocket and pays it willingly and walks away.

There is also the failure to listen to those who may have the answers but are not part of the inner circle of local power brokers in the trades. Others who want to make sure they keep getting business from the contractors will candy coat the issues of Carbon Monoxide and equipment safety. As others posted here the codes are minimal standards, it is up to the installer to go the extra mile for increased safety. An example I have been preaching that vents exiting the side of buildings should be required to have a higher point above grade. The typical 12" above grade will work in Florida but it does not work here in New England. I have stated often that they should be at least 30" above grade. That would be the minimum and from there the installer should know what his or her region has for typical snow fall.

There are as we know ways to safely and efficiently install equipment. Put the pressure on the installers and give them realistic rules to follow and they will do a good job. It should be mandatory for inspectors to be going thru all of the classes on new equipment. Most of these training sessions are free from the manufactuers, if they do not attend they do not know what is correct.

Jim Davis_3

I never said I didn't like Canada. Some of the best people I have ever met. It scares me because a lot of their stupids rules have been influencing our country.

Bob Harper

future state

Timmie, we are on the same wavelength I think. I agree that practically speaking, there is a good case for the 4ft above grade part. There also needs to be much improvement on fail safing vents and controls but it must be balanced with current technology and sound information. For instance, why is it we expect PVC to be able to withstand positive vent pressures while containing CO and nasties, yet there is no pressure testing of these pipes? How many techs us leak check bubbles on every PVC joint? What is the leak is so strong, it blows away the test soln so the tech thinks its ok because he didn't see bubbles? We still have a long way to go but panic/ kneejerk was never a good solution to problems.

I'd like to see greater emphasis on commissioning testing. How many techs block the vent to see if the unit kicks off and how long does it take? How much CO leaked. Is the sensor made in a UL supervised facility or some third world hooch? Mfrs need to police their suppliers better and conduct quality checks more often.
maybe it isn't enough to require appliances only be listed. Maybe we need to require they be mfd. in an ISO 9001 facility?? Still no guarantee but its a start.
Bob

Gary Reecher

Lennox Pulse Vent Pressure Test

To the best of my knowledge the Pulse furnace is the only furnace heat exchanger pressure test procedures include pressure testing the vent as well.

Requiring this on all make installs sure would cut down on the number of dry fits I run into.