Best hydronic system available

BigJoe

Very busy with change-outs and spending too much time explaining alternatives to homeowners. Of course everyone is concerned with price of oil and I've been asked too often, "why should I stick with oil?" The explanation of cost per btu only carries them so far. I capture some attention with explaining the ability to shop for oil dealer, but still many HO switch to gas. The HO's sticking to oil want an explanation, which I don't have, as the cost benefit of various setups. How much savings can each of the following present?
Outdoor reset, indirect, Triple pass low-mass boiler.

Can one of the smart people on the Wall give me some idea on efficiency improvements of these.

And what's up with the price of oil tanks? Had not changed one in a year, but just called my supplier and WOW, I think they've increased faster than the price of oil.

Just some ranting: Here's the kicker for the wall, the reasons for switching to gas I've heard just this past month:
gas boilers do not require maintenance,
gas boilers never get "plugged up"
gas boilers don't smell like oil,
Burner techs always track oil in the house, and make a mess.
What a bunch of bull.

'Nuff Said

Ron Schroeder_3

In my opinion

You should ask the customer what THEY want and then try to give it to them. If they want a Natural Gas boiler because they see a benefit, give them one.

Customers do not appreciate data, logic, features. They only appreciate benefits, and percieved benefits drive sales.

We cannot make converts by preaching. We can make longterm win win relationships and partnerships by asking questions and allowing the client to tell us what they are looking for. We then select from a palette of products, those items which best meet or exceed the clients expectations, not ours.

Unfortunately, oil does smell worse than gas. In a non-condensing gas appliance it is true that homeowners can go a long time between service intervals. Gas appliances ususally do not plug up the oil ones can And if the client complains of the burner technician tracking dirt through their home then somewhere along the line the technician alienated the client.

In my experience, homowners forgive a lot of my indiscetions when I otherwise exceed their expectations. I do however know how to operate a mop.

For what its worth.

Oh and by the way, by the time I place a weather cap on my doublewall oil tank and include a level gauge and top connections I have spent the better part of $2000.00 FOB

GMcD

Envelope and windows

Learn all about the building envelope and give yourself a value-added service doing blower door testing and infra-red scans on the houses. Take the budget the homeowner has for a potential equipment upgrade (thinking that changing equipment will lead to lower fuel bills is NOT the long term answer) and see how many upgraded windows and envelope leak seals/adding insulation it would pay for. Stop the heat loss so the equipment doesn't have to provide the make-up heat. Switching from one fossil fuel to another is not where we should be going in a search for heating system "efficiency". Stop the heat losses first, then look at high efficiency equipment.

Joe Brix

Just tell them where gas prices are going

Outdoor reset, indirect, Triple pass low-mass boiler save in both oil and gas so you can't defend oil on those counts. I would try to give them the best efficency for their dollar. If their mind is set on gas, so be it.

joel_19

\"get gas your wallet goes boom \"

My variation on your old get gas house goes boom thoery. Our gas company is raising rates 65% that's on top of 25-30% last year and they where more than oil to begin with . Sooo you want gas why ? cause you certainly aren't going to save any money!

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BigJoe

Enough about the oil vs gas, let them have what they want.

But back to the efficiency issues, What has experience shown regarding adding outdoor reset / tekmars? Is the payback there? With the cost of these $$ controls and tempering setups, p/s piping, extra circ, is the customer still ahead with CI on/off oil boilers and an indirect DHW?

BigJoe

Enough about the oil vs gas, let them have what they want.

But back to the efficiency issues, What has experience shown regarding adding outdoor reset / tekmars? Is the payback there? With the cost of these $$ controls and tempering setups, p/s piping, extra circ, is the customer still ahead with CI on/off oil boilers and an indirect DHW?

SWS2_3

I agree BigJoe. I question how much "payback" there is with outdoor reset, extra circs, P/S etc. I have installed many systems that I liked because they are perceived to be the best and look real pretty with circs/relays/valves all lined in a row. If payback is 10 years, dont you thnk something more effiecient will be developed by then? Also remeber KISS principle. Power strikes fry electronic controllers all the time. I am not talking commercial or large residential, but I think a simple system is the way to go on a 2-3000 sq. ft house.

Ron Schroeder_3

reducing supply water temperature

by whatever means, while maintiaining comfort levels that customers need will result in fuel savings. Three degrees reduction yields one % energy savings.

If you can do the reset manually, no problem, you can save the energy manually. If you reset electrically, you save the money automatically. The accuracy with which you match your heat loss and gain will directly influence the speed at which the control investment makes itself felt.

As to the period where payback is realized, that can be hard to quantify. One homeowner likes greater reset than another. The greater resetter will earn his investment back sooner.

Another customer puts a higher personal value on the comfort which automation brings than on the fuel consumption which it reduces. This person's payback period begins as soon as the conrol is activated.

If oil is the only option then presently in NA there is no other chioce except for on off boilers. The tempering valves and circuit controls only try to minimize the number of on off these cycles that happen every day. In sulfur free oil environments oil condensing boilers are available and are making themselves felt.

An indirect DHW is always a gentler user of energy than is a direct fired tank. The standby losses are simply lesser. Additionally with their lifetime warranty to the first purchaser in residential applications, they are a more efficient appliance from a life cycle perspective as well.

Shalom

Joe Brix

While I don't want my heating system to last 30+ years

Since I'm probably mising out on new energy efficent products, I also don't want to replace a system every 10 years! True, it might not make sense to go in and add a Tekmar boiler control and repipe P/S on a 30 year old boiler. But I think we all can't afford a Viessmann solution, and some of this new technology should be used in an upgrade. Would a boiler control, some extra piping, a circulator and relay realy take 10 years to get a payback on?

Constantin

Hmmm...

IIRC, outdoor reset has resulted in documented savings of 9-16%. A lot of you posted energy consumption needs in previous threads that were on the order of about $2000 per annum. Thus, a conservative 10% savings would result in a $200 energy savings per year.

That kind of a savings should pay for repiping the near-boiler piping, the circ, etc. in a few years at most, but it really depends on the labor cost of the contractor, right?

But I'd also regard it as as an investment for the future as when, not if, the boiler is replaced some time in the future, the PS near boiler piping will be perfectly suitable for almost any boiler you throw its way, reducing future installation costs.

RoosterBoy

*~/:)

for me ,the dollar goes into insulation and quadrapane windows first. and orientation of the windows to take advantage of the sunlight in your area of the world. selection of building materials and what these materials do for the job market in YOUR community and the development of the potential available rolls right with it.

next is wrapped in along the lines of fresh air not necessarily just outside air.

and as gracious as a 56'X90' entry way may be to a home, consideration of designe needs to be ever prevalent on the mind when developing a floor plan.

circulation of water in pipe to redistribute the btus from one area to another to the area of choise also makes for a well considered stradgey of energy usage.

*~/:) .....awwh schucks...i am starting to sound like i am from the Twighlight zone again.

BigAL

steel:vs cast iron

I sell commercial high pressure boilers (150lb psi up to3 million btus) I have a question about a boiler for my home. What our the opinions on steel vs cast iron. I currently have a twenty year old steel(works good I just think it is time for a change) The company I by from has a wet base steel 85% efficiency. My oil man would like to see me in a cast iron. He said the cast iron would last longer, and heat better.I would like to hear other peoples opinions. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Ron Schroeder_3

You prefaced your remarks

by telling us you sell steam boilers. Are you considering a steam system for your home?

Dan_15

I replaced my pot-belly boiler last year with a Buderus boiler and indirect tank. In 2004-2005 saw a savings of approx. 400 gallons, representing approx. 23% of my total annual usage. This year I plan to blow insulation and add outdoor reset + indoor reset. Hope to achieve an additional 15%+ savings for a total annual savings in 2005-2006 of 40%. That's over $1800+ per year at market price today. At that rate, my ROI will be approx 5 years for total boiler replacement and insulation. I will report back with hard numbers when I have the data this winter.

My prediction is that the boiler controls will work particularly well with my system. I have a mismatched system consisting of high water mass (converted gravity) coupled with fin/tube convectors for heat emitters. My prediction is that the convectors will respond very well to continuous temperature modulation in a constant circ environment. I also predict that it is more efficient to modulate the temp of a high water mass in a constant circ environment, than the old on/off method. I submit that the controls may not save as much $$$ in a different system than mine, and the ROI may be much longer for others than it is for me.