Ozone Layer still fragile

Eugene Silberstein 3

Since CFC releases result in the airborne chlorine molecules that will remain in the stratosphere for over 75 years, the results on the CFC ban (in the form of reduced ozone depletion) will not become evidient for some time. Ozone depletion that is presently taking place is, at least partially, the result of CFC releases that took place years ago.

Another issue on the same topic, John, is the large number of companies that still do not have EPA Section 608 certified technicians. The really sad part is, that these companies and technicians are still venting refrigerant as though it was 1985 and they are not being turned in to the authorities.

These companies are, ironically, still charging their customers refrigerant handling fees, recovery equipent usage fees, refrigerant disposale fees as well as other refrigerant-recovery related expenses.

If the chance of getting fined by the EPA is so small, there will continue to be a large number of companies who will continue to use the "vent-and-hope-I-don't-get-caught" method of refrigerant recovery.

John R. Hall

Near record size this year

UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan said the ozone layer has become thinner in most places in the world, suggesting that the CFC ban, although necessary, has had little effect on solving the problem. It makes me wonder how thin the ozone layer would be without the ban -- and what other measures need to be done.

Eugene Silberstein 3

You've got mail

You have mail, Mr. Hall.

Steve Ebels_3

I still haven't heard

A satisfactory explanation of how something that's heavier than air get's up 65,000 to 80,000 ft altitude.

Eugene Silberstein 3

Excellent Question

I must have had this very question presented by my students at least 50 times. It is true that CFC molecules are heavier than air and yes, the laws of physics would tell you that, since they are heavier they should settle back towards the ground. The fact of the matter is that air motion causes the air and everything that is present in it, to mix. Winds carry this "mixture" to high altitudes that extend far into and very often above the stratosphere, which is the shell that surrounds the earth at a distance of 7 to 30 miles above the surface of the earth. This mixing takes place faster than the CFC molecules can settle back to earth.

Timothy Trexler, Jr

Conflicting views?

Earth's ozone layer on long road to healing

http://www.climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=46284

Steve Ebels_3

Thanks Eugene

But like I have said here before on other topics, I should live in the "Show me" state with Hot Rod.

While I don't dispute that the ozone layer is getting whacked by something, I still have questions as to whether it's 100% caused by CFC's. Just sit down and calculate the millions of pounds (maybe tons) of various pollutants discharged every day directly into the upper layers of the atomosphere. I'm refering to the exhaust of all the jets flying hither, thither and yon in or a little below the layer where the problem is happening. Common sense tells me that this cannot occur without a corresponding reaction in the atmosphere.

"Show me" the science, not a theory behind the supposition that it's all caused by CFC's.......... just for the sake of playing devils advocate.

thp_7

show me the money Steve

When they are done explaining that one... They can tell me why did the cost of refrigerants go up from the cfc to hfc 1000%? It just must be that much harder to make Riiigghhtt.

Eugene Silberstein 3

I Agree Steve

Steve, I agree with you 100%. But it's a lot easier to blame the HVAC industry and other "CFC-venters" than to ground all commercial air lines.

I would love to see the sience as well. It would definitely make for great conversation in my classes.

bob_50

Exercise in futility

most of the CFCs ever produced were used to blow foam and as a cleaning agent in the electronics industry. A small percentage was used as refrigerant. Except for the extremly small percentage that is incinerated it all ultimatly ends up in the atmosphere. On one call I can dump 100lbs of 22 in a centrifugal and bring the pressure up wih nitrogen to leak test, and vent the whole works to atmosphere because it wasn't installed as a refrigerant. It was a trace gas. On the next call I have to say "de minimus" when I purge my hose. GOVERNMENT NONsense.

thp_7

The big loser is

the store owners. I asked the bnp news to run a story on the rising cost of refrigerants. I have not seen it yet. I also asked about an industry in termoil. Put yourself in the place of the store owner who has done a cfc to hcfc retro, then a hcfc to hfc retro. Then try to sell them a new unit because the system is getting old. I am amazed that the store owners don't well I won't go there. But if you put all things in persective. A) Look at where all the money goes. New recovery machines, new tanks, new gauges, new oils, new leak detectors, more new flavors of refrigerant than you can imagine and yes to me the service man. I do alot of my own weather watching of climatical data. My own opinion is that for our area has: no global warming.

Dirk Wright

They don't fly that high, except...

Only the SST (Concorde) and US supersonic military bombers and jet fighters fly high enough to be a concern about the ozone layer. Ordinary passenger jets fly 20,000 feet lower than the SST did. I'm sure someone has done a study on how much damage high flying jets have caused. I only know about the effects from the SST.

Maine doug_14

The Science

I am married to a chemist who can show the reaction if you really want to see the science. By the way, cfc's have not been used as everyday propellants for many years. At one point they consumed 28% of the total.
Here is a site with some details. A summary of the ozone reaction is near the end of the page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFC

(edit) Here is another

http://www.beyonddiscovery.org/content/view.article.asp?a=73

Eugene Silberstein 3

Good Stuff, Doug

Thanks for the post Doug. A lot of the guys will find the link intersting... I know my students will.

The reaction that your are referencing is relatively common knowledge and summarizes how a chlorine atom is able to destroy an ozone molecule. The is the same process that every air conditionig technician must be completely familiar with in order to take and pass the EPA type 608 certification examination.

I think that earlier posts by others were seeking a more detailed explanation of what other airborn substances are contributing to the damage of the ozone layer.

As you point out, CFCs have not been used as propellants for years in many applications (asthma inhalers, for example), but may still be used in others. I think that this was the information that the others were looking for.

At any rate, Doug, the information you linked us to is awesome and I will definitely be spending time looking over it, as I hope others will as well.

I guess it pays to marry a chemist.

Keep up the good work.