Viega’s Climate Panel™ trouble

Unknown

Ok. I'll check out the TJI's more carefully and look for the PL200 squeezed out from ontop of the joists. I'm not sure how to find out if the correct joists were used. There have been so many changes to this job. The entire home was raised 3 feet to make for 9' ceilings on all 3 levels. No plans are available on this job. Too many changes. If it's not a CP problem who do I point the finger at? My product is the one making that SQUEAK!!

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Unknown

HELP!

I’ve got major squeaking noises occurring with the panel’s groove moving vertically on the EVOH barrier of the 5/16” Pextron throughout a new construction site. It sounds exactly like the noise as the tubing is walked into the T- slot groove. When the owner can hear the new radiant floor squeaking, NOT GOOD! Luckily, the system is still exposed and we’re still in the rough in stage.

The squeaks “seem” to be because the panels are not pulling down all the way to the 3/4” T&G sub-floor. (I can see the floor move as we walk on it) The structure is well built with structural I-beams & engineered floor joists. Sub-floor is level and was clean swept & vacuumed before the ACP’s were stapled down. I used a pneumatic stapler with a 7/16” crown and 1-1/4” leg. I used 7 staples per side of each panel: 14 per panel. My helper and I attended the two day “Advanced Climate Panel” classes at Viega’s NA headquarters two days prior to beginning this job and we installed this stuff according to the book. The noise is real and after buying another box of staples (this time 1-1/2” Senco) and double/triple stapling, the noise still exists albeit to a lesser degree. I got a Senco DuroSpin and started shooting 1-1/2” screws into the areas that the squeaks still are noticeable and even this doesn’t seem to help. I’ve had the Mfg’s Rep. out to visit the site twice and they are trying to figure out why this is happening on this job. No answers that make any sense to me at this point.

I’ve never heard this squeaking noise as we walk around on any other job we’ve done. Anybody ever experience this problem with this dry system? Any ideas would be helpful but, we’ve already thought this thing through and nothing seems to make any sense. I’ve got lots of this stuff in this house. 5,000 Sq Ft. Losing sleep;-)


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hr

Are you sure

the subfloor to joist connection is good? Did they use construction adhesive and proper nailing schedule? Wet joists don't hold adhesive well.

Are the panels warped?

Even TJI's get over spanned sometimes, check for that. Some tile manufactures are calling for 1/640 instead of the 1/320 deflection for large tiles and porcelin tiles due to flexing and cracking.

Maybe red rosin paper under the panels. If you keep adding fasteners and the problem persists, it's probably not a fastener problem

Plus the weight of all those fasteners you are adding

hot rod

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Steve Ebels_3

Sounds to me

Like you got subfloor troubles Gary. The only time I had noise problems with a CP floor it was traced to the subfloor. Since that time I have gone through after the carpenters and screwed down their subfloor. I don't think that nails hold 100% of the time and when your dealing with something that has to be 100% right.........I just don't take the chance. I screw the CP down also with finer thread screws than your normal drywall or multi-purpose types. Never used staples so I don't have any input there.

Bottom line......Something's moving and from the way you describe what you've done I don't think it's your deal.

ScottMP

I agree with HR

that many screws and staples and its NOT a climate panel problem.

We use this product exclusivly and have had No Problems with noise.

Scott

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hr

The lumber yard

should have the span tables for that joist system. lately I have been finding these handy booklets taped to the sides of TJI's. I keep one in my tool box.

It has the hole drilling chart. Very few sub contractors have a clue about where and how big of a hole can be placed in TJI's.

Ideally an architech or structural engineer would stamp an approval on a framing package, but.....

hot rod

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Unknown

Drilling holes in TJI's

In my younger years doing plumbing work, I knew little (nothing) about where and how big I could drill holes for DWV roughing in. I caught hell from a GC on a nursing home project and it ended up costing my boss a ton. Still lots of Subs out there are clueless. I still see it all the time.

I don't see any violations WRT holes being drilled/hammered out on this job. Still hoping that someone from Viega will be able to help figure out what's going on on this job. Even if it's found to be my fault or not not, I'm going to have to find a way to remidy the situation. I've thought that perhaps some sort of a lubricant could be sprayed in the T-slot so the EVOH barrier would not squeek and allow the movement wothout harming the materials. A bit unconventional but, just an idea I think just might work. Any thoughts?

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hr

I guess they

don't offer a PAP tube that size? This sure does eliminate noise from outer barrier, and expansion issues.

Pretty hard to get squeeks out of an improperly installed subfloor. Check www.jlc online and Fine HomeBuilding. They have articles on squeaking floor repairs from time to time.

hot rod

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Unknown

This might be a silly question, but you did put silicon in the grooves, correct?

Unknown

proposed solution

I just spoke with Joe Freedrich (the CP inventor) and it was suggested that I try spraying 100% silicone spray on the tubing/groove where the noises are comming from. Seems I'm the only one this ever happened to.

HR,

No PAP in 5/16" to be found unless there is some obscure Mfg somewhere hiding it from us:-)

Rob,

I used a 3/16" to 1/4" bead of GE 100% silicone caulking:-)

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Unknown

Scott,

you use this product exclusivly? Have you tried ThermoFin U system on top of the floor? After having done both, I'm more inclined to cut my own sleepers and go for the higher output system. The ACP has it's place. It's not my place any more.


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Steve Ebels_3

My guess

My guess is still the subfloor/joist interface. I'd be willing to bet that the joist and the subfloor were wet when the two were "connected". Now as they have dried out dimensions have changed and there are actually small gaps between the OSB and the glue/lam joists. This allows movement of the fabricated type floor joists because they have very little torsional or twisting strength. This type of joist is very stout when they are firmly held perpendicular to the load. Look out though when they can flex, even just a little bit. I have seen this on a couple other jobs that did not involve Climate Panel or any other radiant heating. They just had squeaky floors which were nailed, not screwed.

Your tube is making noise Gary but the movement of the subfloor is allowing the noise to happen in the first place.

Ted_9

subfloor

Sounds like your very secure CP are pulling on the subfloor.

Maybe they can shoot some screws or nails from the bottom in the squeekie areas.

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Unknown

Thanks Steve

The finger is now being pointed in another dirrection. It's up to the GC to prove the joists and structural system meets tollerance. Oye! I just want this to go away.

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Unknown

Ted, That ain't happening.

Can you imagine the stress of screwing from under a system such as this? "They" ain't shooting nothing from below.


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ScottMP

Then thats good for you

Honestly Gary, I think your pointing fingers in the wrong direction and you do a disservice to a compnay that has been in the vangaurd of the radiant heating business in the US.

To point a finger and label your post as a " Problem ", I belive, is not well thought out. Logic would tell you that a 1/2" peice of plywood screwed and stapled to a floor would not squeak. Did you walk on the floor before you put down the panel ? No squeaks ? Dosn't make sense to me, but then again alot of your post don't to me.

Good luck

Scott

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jerry scharf_3

things that go squeek

Gary,

It's hell to be the one "on the spot" for a problem like this. It sure sounds like you have a deflection problem. I would try to borrow a laser level like foundation folks use, then get a stout person to map the deflection of the floor. The ideal thing would be a split laser setup, as they are more accurate.

jerry

Ted_8

Never ending

Seems like you have a never ending supply of problem jobs and I find it interesting that you always seem to expect the manufacturers to correct things for you while you run them down in the public eye. Why is this a Viega problem? Why do some people think that a manufacturer or rep or wholesaler has to underwrite their work?

Unknown

... I would think if there is a problem with a particular product, the mfg or rep would want to get involved, if for no other reason than to update their installation lit to mention a potential problem, so other jobs don't go bad too.. That would be blatant self-interest, wouldn't it?

They also would be the ones most likely to know about odd issues involving their product, would they not?

I don't see GW here running anyone down. He's a big Viega fan, in fact. What's the problem? I personally am really glad people post here with odd problems. I learn something every time they do. Isn't that why this site is here?

joel_19

Gary

we have used that product since they introduced it 10 years ago??? i've never had that problem . We do screw all of them down , never staples . However I know guys who staple it and they say they are ok . We have literally installed ACRES of this product , no problems if it's siliconed how can it move ? The plywood itself mwould seeem to be moving up and down ?

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Constantin

I think it's the sub-floor

Allegedly, the OSB or whatever was exposed to water and the environment for a while during construction. Even though it's tongue and groove and all that jazz, I would ask my carpenters to put the joints over joists and other hard things rather than relying on the tongue and groove to carry a load. So, my first hunch is that the problem areas will coincide with joints with the subfloor below.

Due to the previous ingress of moisture, the floor may have also warped. A laser level would indicate how level the floor is. If the stuff is undulating just a bit, then the relatively true Stadler product will flex as it's walked on. One possible way to cure this is to locate the joists below and to have the carpenters run a series of screws through the Climate panel sleepers, through the subfloor, and into the joists below. The result should be a very stiff membrane.

Lastly, a wood floor is bound to sqeak in one way or the other over its lifetime. It's a part of the material, the charm, etc. I would clad a room in finished flooring to see if the squeaks become un-noticable once the finished floor is in place. It stands to reason that Stadler has less to do with this problem than the folk that installed the sub-floor and which allowed it to get wet.

deltat

Too many fingers

I have to agree with Chris on this one – from your posts it seems that you are mostly interested in pointing fingers at somebody, whether it’s the climate panel manufacturer, lumber yard, GC, etc. Maybe you should point the finger at yourself. You are applying one piece of plywood to another and you are the only one to ever have this problem which would lead me think that you have installed the panels improperly. You should spend the next 10 hrs screwing 100 boxes of screws into these panels until a natural disaster wouldn’t even move them.

deltat

Too many fingers

I have to agree with Chris on this one – from your posts it seems that you are mostly interested in pointing fingers at somebody, whether it’s the climate panel manufacturer, lumber yard, GC, etc. Maybe you should point the finger at yourself. You are applying one piece of plywood to another and you are the only one to ever have this problem which would lead me think that you have installed the panels improperly. You should spend the next 10 hrs screwing 100 boxes of screws into these panels until a natural disaster wouldn’t even move them.

Matt_21

deltat

i don't think gary is trying to point the finger at all. he has a problem with a product. it is installed per the manu. recommendations. if a problem arises, you have to call viega to see if they ran into the problem before or at least see if they have any idea what the cause. it's their product, they should know more about it than anyone. if they say it's in per their recommendations, you have to look at what another problem may be. it's attached to the sub floor, now you look to see if the subfloor is installed correctly. i don't think he is pointing fingers, i think he is trying to solve the problem. maybe it isn't his problem at all?
we had the same situation with an a/c unit. when it came on, the lights would dim in the house. we went down ran some tests, looked around and found the electrician had to much equipment drawing off of one phase of the panel. he moved some breakers to the other side and the problem was solved.

ScottMP

So

Did you post a notice on a national website claiming the A/C manufacture had a problem and was telling you that you were the only one to have that problem ?

Did you post on a national website that it was not your product to use anymore ???

Sounds like instead you used common sense to solve the problem.

Scott


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ScottMP

So

Did you post a notice on a national website claiming the A/C manufacture had a problem and was telling you that you were the only one to have that problem ?

Did you post on a national website that it was not your product to use anymore ???

Sounds like instead you used common sense to solve the problem.

Scott


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Unknown

Today on another job, the owner was walking about on the carefully placed back-primed red oak T&G finish flooring and brought to my attention that the CP flooring as he walks over it squeaks. More screws, silicone and effort.

Finding solutions is sometimes better served by networking. Unfortunately, sometimes you need help with details that may affect one’s own liability down the road. This is why I posted the new thread. There is more than one way to do dry radiant systems and I’ve done my share. IMHO, there is no logical reason to use the CP system “exclusively.” To do so would be wrong for all involved, save the OEM;-) This system, and any for that matter, are only appropriate in certain applications. There are many other systems available (more each day) but, the CP has a very longstanding track record and “I’m the only one this has ever happened to.” Correct that we can’t discount user error here but, come on now! There is only so much you can learn about installing the CP system and I’d be more than willing to go head-to head with anyone who has more experience than I WRT these panels. It’s really just plywood with some foil stamped on the back isn’t it? Brilliant industrial design. How much can you leave out WRT a CP installation?

I’ve had Viega’s District Manager out to this home twice. Viega seems to be stepping up to the plate here (slowly) and I’ve been assured that regardless of whose problem this really is, “they will be there for me.” My salesman has been there for us along this rocky road 100%

I believe there is nothing offensive or slanderous about my original or follow-up posts. I would have spoken and will speak the same way about any Mfg I’m having “major” problems with in the exacting installation of their products. Truth vs. power.

I’m now being told by the Mfg.’s that “big wheels turn slowly.” They now want to examine my pneumatic Hitachi staple gun. That will be fine with me but, I shouldn’t have to drive it out to them!

Now I have another CP job with the same problem. No mention to the HO about this ongoing situation. Just him walking on a newly commissioned Vitodens/CP job and I was horrified when it was brought to my attention that a few places SQUEAK. I was privileged to have Constantine out to this site today (he lives down the street). I don’t think he found any warts on my application of product, but you can ask him about that.

"Real-world feedback trumps theory every time." Thanks Rob.


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Unknown

Chris,

True. I do have a neverending supply of problematic jobs. I always find a solution either here (The Wall) or by my own internal networking.

I’m not running anyone down here Chris. Viega is a great company. I’ve been using lots of their Pextron™tubing lately. Products we sell say something about who we are. How you perceive me is not important or intuitive of this discussion whatsoever and I don’t understand the vitriol.


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Unknown

Cleaver user name;-)

Delta,

Why don't you understand that I should not have to pay for 10+ hours more of stapling & screwing after the installation was done by the book? I'm doing just that. More staples now. Walking over again and again. Still some spots squeak. Those get silicone spray and 12 1 1/4" screws. Six on each side of the squeak close to the tube as I dare. This is an unnatural disaster.

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Unknown

All the Viegan engineers were on my job today.

They spent a lot of time examining the squeaks on one of the two problematic jobs. Took lots of pictures and while they were there, the flooring installer shot my tubing with his staple gun twice in a row while under 28 PSI of water pressure. I couldn't believe it!

Aparently 7 staples (14) per panel is not enough for evry install and we can expect to see a revision in the installation instructions because of these observations. 3 engineers and the regional rep all agree the staples should be staggered throughout the panel and two should be used side-by-side in some instances. Still waiting for the formal new reccomendations from them but, having them out there all in agreement that I'd done nothing wrong sure helped. Made the HO feel better as well.

Viega really stepped up to the plate today and not one second too late as the finish flooring was being started late this morning.

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Rookie

Makes sense if the floor squeaks, then put more staples in.Did they have to show you how much flux and solder to use too?

Unknown

Rocky,,,

I'm the one who taught YOU how to solder;-) so,,, be nice my old friend/apprentice.

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Rookie

?

You need help.

Unknown

You did see the wink
;-)
in the previous email.....right Rocky?


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