general contractors

clammy

Thanks guys after reading all your postes i feel alot better even though i already know i'm totally hosed and in all likely hood never get paid for the first invoice or the second but hopefully the hand of karma shall as be more even then the weights of justice ? I will of course contact all my buddies who do plumbing ,heating and a/c and tell them to not deal with this tool even if it's 100 % up front he will always try to get something extra out of you. Thanks again for the advice i believe it might have been me though because i forget how long it took me to get a final payment on the last job i did for this tool but now it 's all coming back crystal clear i just have to remenber DON'T WORK FOR GC'S there crimals without the bars peace clammy

clammy

general contractors

Just wondering if it is just me or are the only people on the job allowed to make money the GC .Just recently gave a gc the boot for hassling me constanly on a job price to the point of aggravation like gave the guy the price about 6 times on 6 different scienos and he give me the price back a grand shy of the original price and of cours ehe wants it all mint hydrosorb clamps isolation valves the whole nine yards is it me or them .I recently finish a full 9 hour day re sizing gas pipe and installing a pia gas log set and this guy hosing me compltely on what he owes and was quoetd i fiqure it must be me that i should lower my prices to materal only and eat ramen noddles while they go to the diner and beat the watress on the tip .sorry just venting how do you guy deal with or not deal with the free hand out of money these guy tax onto everything making me look like a crook while i got nothing to do with it .Peace and thanks for any input clammy

Tony_23

Me too

That's one reason I don't do much "new work".

The other reason is the comparison between the old and the new when I'm done is what makes my wheels go 'round. When I save a customer 1/2 their heating bill they love me, and everybody needs love On a new build there is nothing to compare to, so they do't realize the value you bring to the table.

I'm busy just about all year doing 95% retrofit.

lchmb

Hey Clammy

Sounds like your having a heck of a time. I worked for a contract company and it got to the point that they would only work for a GC if the bill was paid in full prior to starting the work. Way to many time's they would start the work with 1/2 down and then fight for month's to get paid off. I would stick to my gun's if I were you. Here's my price, the only price. Take it or leave it. Your work speaks for itself, dont let them sell you short!!

bob young

tin men

gen. contractors will beat you every time. they are mostly all the same & the final payment usually never comes. if it is a plumbing job you might have the sign-off for leverage but that does not even work sometimes.

Steve Ebels_3

Rule of thumb

Never compromise yourself or the quality of a job for the sake of the GC.

We are to the point where I do not actively seek any new construction work. On typical new stuff, both commercial and residential, the customer has no idea how bad they are getting hosed by bad designs and poor workmanship. The up front price is low and that's all that matters in most cases. They don't see all the costs and loss of economy that comes their way indefinitely for the life of the building. Sad but true.

I have to say that over the last couple weeks I have had more questions from HO's wanting to know the best system to install for their application. This high fuel price thing has finally started to wake people up.

Paul Pollets

New construction

We do alot of new construction projects. 50% of the time we are contracted directly to the homeowner, rather than the GC. This tends to make it easier, both to make it clear what system type is being installed, and to collect the money.

My price is my price. We rarely negotiate. Of course a "cheaper" price can be found elsewhere...so be it. Specific contract language is key to the process. It's too busy out there to be fooling around with knuckleheads.

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J.C.A._3

Personally,

I think Tony has the right idea:). Working in new constuction more often than not turns into a fight for space in my opinion. I wish I had a buck for every minute I spent fighting with an electrician for space to provide the comfort that the HOMEOWNER(remember them?) deserved.

More than once, I've drilled holes in beams and floors only to find them filled with wires the next day. A set of linemans pliers is a godsend in those cases isn't it? We try as best we can to work WITH all the other trades on a new install, but sometimes we get a bite in the **** trying to be nice.

What we provide is comfort and NEEDED systems.Heat is not an option in most cases, but a nessesity. What we have been getting for space to provide said comfort seems to be an afterthought in most cases. The solution is to get into the building process sooner, rather than after the fact. Give the designer/architecht rules to live by and stand fast on your ground.If they don't give it to you, RUN, don't walk away. The designer hates the fact that you're right in the space that needs to be given, but the homeowner(remember them? designers don't in most cases!)) will be well served if you can provide required service in a timely fasion, as opposed to having to fit in a space a squirrel won't fit in to fix things.

Remember, the GC is just following orders. If you get into the fold early enough, and get a say in the initial planning, you stand a better chance of giving the customer what they need and WANT, as opposed to what the design team THINKS they need.Just my enlightened opinion. Chris

Steve Ebels_3

Case in point JCA

The wife and I went on the annual "parade of homes" tour in our area this afternoon and evening with a couple friends. The home that we were involved in was the only one out of 12 on the parade that had radiant/hot water heat. In two of the houses we looked at, there are no words to adequately describe the butchery of framing done by the HVAC contractors for their F/A installations. We saw undersized main duct. We saw 50' long 6" supply runs to registers.(I wonder how that room will heat?) We saw cardboard joist panning. We saw register supplies that started out in metal, changed to flexible to loop over or around something and then back to metal.
In defense of the HVAC guys I have to say that a fair amount of the shoddy looking work was due to plumbers or electricians running their stuff crosswise theough the middle of a joist bay. This left virtually no possible way for any normal duct to be placed correctly. Another problem was simply layout and design of the structure itself. Equipment was jammed into corners with no realistic way to get all the duct run back in any semblence of order at all. You have to fault the building designer and the carpenters for that.

You hit the nail on the head with your point about getting in on the initial planning. Trouble is, most of the GC's around here just give you a call on Monday and tell you the house needs to be roughed in and inspected by Wednesday because the drywall crew is coming Thursday. What kind of a job do they think they are going to get. The sad part is that the HO's think they are getting a nice new HVAC system and it will work properly. If they only knew the static pressure mayhem their system was dealing with they would understand why their brand new house "doesn't heat right".

I think the best example of a junk system was a beautiful 3,200 sq ft house with vaulted ceilings all over and featured the following system. A Goodman 80% (who installs 80% efficient equipment these days) furnace of 70,000 btu INPUT capacity connected to an 8x20 main duct system. There were no tapered transitions in the whole thing, no radius ells to make 90* bends, just standard duct slammed into the side of another piece of duct. On this 3 ton furnace, they had installed a 4 ton AC system. ARRRRrrrgghhhh!! In a way I feel sorry for the HO and in a way I don't. They probably selected the low bid or trusted the GC when they should have been involved themselves.

Maine Ken

Mechanics Lien. Watch them try to close on the house with an outstanding lien. You will get your money.

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S Davis

space

We are proactive on this issue I usually sit down with the phone book about once a year and call all of the architects and designers in the area, I introduce our company and offer to come to their office and go through design and install of radiant and boiler systems it works great in educating them on installation techniques and space required for the install and also gives them somthing to go on as far as picking a good designer/installer this has brought us alot of work not to mention made the jobs that we did get through these contacts go smoother.




S Davis

Apex Radiant Heating

Constantin

Chin up...

Clammy, I've seen your work, and the quality speaks for itself. IMO, there will always be a lot of work for those who do it right, the ones that "get it", etc. Given where energy prices are headed right now, I think many of you will be turning work away...

I also agree that it's a lot easier for a consumer to appreciate the benefits of a real pro when their utility bills do drop significantly. Plus, they're more likely to understand the pitfalls of their current system because they've had to live with it. Perhaps they've even been to the wells of knowledge at the bookshop, the internet, etc.

In new construction, life is a lot more complicated for the trades because they rarely get to interact with the end user on the same level. Plus, money usually is an issue. Here too does the GC get caught between the common desire for bling vs. the need to build a sound structure. I've seen a top-notch GC interact pefectly with a customer so that she would be able to stay in her budget, yet build a beautiful house...

So, there are honest GCs that earn their money, the trust of the trades, and the gratitude of the homeowners. My GC is one of them, and all the trades love to work for him because he's extremely well coordinated, he knows what he's doing, and he pays them on time. Given the performance of the GC you've had to deal with and his treatment of you, I doubt he will have any trades to fall back onto... just a question of time. Trick me once, shame on you, trick me twice, shame on me, and all that.

Steamhead (in transit)

Check this thread out

We've all had similar GC screwups. Why anyone would want to work for one.....

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=28829&mc=2

Glen

rarely -

does our firm work directly or solely with the gc. we always interview the HO or commercial customer to ensure they understand what we do for them. even if we have to submit to the gc for invoicing - as it was said - our price is the price. and all on a handshake ... haven't written a contract yet.

Mt. Falls Mikey

I gave up on new work

in the mid 80's,when wholesale-to-HO ,box stores,and DIY TV shows became popular. A national GC that has set up shop here builds a house in 90 DAYS!!...I remember a time when it took a year to build a quality house

heatboy

That is always the key.........

when dealing with GCs. I must have communication with the end user since he is the person occupying the premises after all the trades are long gone. If I am not "allowed" to communicate directly, it's a see ya' from me. The money I make on this project, which is the only thing that matters, is never enough to cover all of the miscommunications that invariably happen in these cases.

[Deleted User]

My take on GC's....

These guys are really no different than the dolts (alleged competitors) we deal with on a daily basis. It's a rare find to get one that understands his true costs of doing business and understands the need to maintain a reasonable and decent profit margin. They usually end up beating up on thier subs so that THEY can make money. I've fired more GC's over the years than I can count on all my fingers and toes. They're not worth the time of day. Even after getting seriously screwed, and screwing back seriously to their incompetent subs, they still complain about the high cost of our work without so much as even addressing the quality issues.

We have a tight cadre of GC's that we work for that don't question our business practices, and REQUIRE us to meet the potential homeowner prior to generating a contractual proposal. In most cases, they have an agreement of cost plus to the end user, and the rates are pretty much fixed, so they're not afraid to allow us to talk turkey ($) to the customer. They also tell the consumer that we're the only firm that will be bidding upon the heating system, and that if they don't accept our bid that they won't be getting a hydronic heating system in their new home...

They been burned numerous times and have learned their lessons the HARD expensive way.

So, let it be said that there ae a FEW gc's out there that are worth the effort to work with, but they are VERY rare. You have to raise them yourself.

ME

heatboy

Sort of like finding........

the right woman? There are a few out there, but.......... ;-)