Oil- v- Gas, again.

RoosterBoy

I find it difficult to understand just what the advantages are in burning up fossil fuels at all. unless being able to live in a community that doesnt have ideal weather year round yet has great community interaction and involvment weighs more in ones mind than paying less for fuel.

We have rather long dark winters here, summer, i am still inclined to belive is an illusion, a Grand Illusion. the Gas prices for home heating are lower per therm than oil in most of the major cities is one of my dellusions of the U.S.A.and natural gas has a larger distribution network and infrastructure how it has climbed to ever increasing heights in price is because these companies can charge it as there are so many people addicted to the idea that they want things to just keep going till they get a chance to......well, only so many people can live where everyone wants to live. all the places nobody wants to live, are populated by relative nobodies such as my self and as we like the neighbourhood we have to pay that price. now the places somebody wants to live probably costs more than where i live so maybe thats the price people who are somebody have to pay.:)) i hope you found this informative and elagantly conveyed . :)

JohnNY8

Oil- v- Gas, again.

Forgive my ignorance, please, but I've yet to be given a satisfactory answer to this question:
If there is natural gas available, why on earth would you use oil to heat your home?

Cost alone could not possibly be the determining factor nor could performance comparisons.

Oil overwhelmingly comes from the Middle East.

Why isn't that a bigger issue?

clammy

bi g homes

Having gas and using oil and having to get the unit clened and annually service which is something every heating system should have performed yearly but oil is a must .It seems to me that on larger and even smaller homes there yearly oil bill is usually suprisingly affordable compared to what a esitmated gas would be .Here's a example one of my custemenrs has a oil fired steam boiler weil mclean sgo 3 and his yearly oil use is about 700 gallons so lets say at 2 bucks a gallon he spent about 1400 a year not bad would his gas bill for heating in the winter only be about 200 a month i doubt it .In larger homes 12,0000 sq ft and larger and old some of there uses are in the neighborhood of 500 to 700 a month minuim so let's say they blow 1200 a month to heat there large home i don't think they could heat there home with gas for the same or less .i've been in large homes brand new insulated with a decent boiler and the right install and pay 700 to 1000 a month and that was years ago to boot and much smaller then previos stated 5000 to 8000 sq ft .In the choice of fuels it's usually what the HO feel good with and the same goes with service also on a another note modulaing gas boiler also change that whole equation but usually a bit more up front .Hope all this was not wasted dribble peace clammy

RS_2

Case closed

A gallon of oil = 140,000 btu the gas equivalent is 100,000 btu (see this link for some btu numbers http://www.jwiwood.com/faq/conversion.html) Therefore equally efficient boiler/furnace means less fuel used with oil. Oil burners are less efficient but even so oil wins example: 140,000 x 80% efficient oil burner = 112,000 btu in your house vs 100,000 x a 90% highly efficient gas boiler = 90,000 in your house. That's almost a 25% increase of oil over gas. So gas must have about a 25% price advantage to beat oil...it does not! (even if you add in the annual maintenance cost of the oil boiler. Reality checks: 1) find a neighbor with a similar size house but different fuel and compare. 2) Ask someone who's converted to gas and hear them complain about the higher bills. 3) Common sense, you don't think that the gas company gives away boilers to convert oil users because they like losing money, do you? Financially oil wins and it's by more than tens of dollars.

Regarding the political question i.e. the earlier Middle East oil comment that's from someone who does not know that 50% of oil imports come from Canada, Mexico and Venezuela. The bigger and relevant political question for us is why are gas prices so rediculously high? The world's supply of gas is many fold times more that of oil so simple supply and demand economics are not at play or else we would be paying a much smaller price for gas. Why are gas prices predicted to escalate so much this year? Ask your gas company to explain why this isn't gouging.

Oil wins. Case closed.

Tony_23

Proper comparison

The 140 to 100 comparison is faulty logic. For proper cost analysis you need the price of a gallon of oil vs a therm of gas. A therm is 100,000 btu and a gallon of #2 oil is 140,000 btu. Let's say the oil is $2.50/gal and gas is $1.80/therm. Obviously, gas is $1.80/100,000btu. Oil is $1.79/100,000btu.

Simple, huh ?

RS_2

The serious error in your logic is that you assume that the current gas price will be the same - want to bet your house on that? Even by your calculation gas wins by a penny. And your calculation proves that oil has been the historical winner (when in your past have you seen oil So high?). Remember readers that gas has to have about a sustained 25% price advatage over oil to permanently win. If you want to bet your wallet on that then go with gas. But remember, when was the last time you saw on the news a house blwon to shreds because of it's oil tank? I'm sure you've seen the pictures of exploded houses that used gas. Reader, which is safer and worth the risk - Would you pay more to have a safer or less safe choice?

JohnNY8

I've done a "survey" of local homeowners and your assertion that a home heated with oil costs 25% more than a home heated with gas is completely out the window.
In fact, there wasn't much difference at all. And I couldn't find a single way to positively slant the findings in the direction of either fuel.

As far as where gas comes from, do a little research and you'll see that buying oil from Mexico and Venezuela is not helping.

lchmb

I think

I think it was cost's 25% less with oil. I have on average seen oil to gas convertion's use 25 to 30 percent more (this is based on delivering these lovely products for five years also). I have also removed a large amount of these and returned those customer's to oil. As to customer satisfaction, at least in my area, oil win's hands down. A large Natural gas supplier in our area did the "free boiler". It ended up picking up a lot of oil customer's who could not afford to upgrade their equipment. When they got to the point they wanted they removed their entire service department and told their customer's to find their own service... Want to ask why I am removing so many gas boiler's now and putting in oil tanks?

Guy_6

Why

Do you think that the price of oil isn't going to follow gas, and vice versa? With oil you have some options of price in regard to the level of service that you want, but in general they run pretty close historically.
I myself like to have choices, yet I heat with gas now, as it's a new system that came with the house. It went up, nearly doubling my bill, just as oil has.

Joe Brix

Dont forget

The utiliites have to file for rate increases. DO they ever lower the price if nat gas prices go down? Unlikely. Oil supplies will glut at these high prices and start to lower. I'm just afraid we'll suffer this winter.

singh

think inside the \"box\"

Should moudulating and condensing boilers be factored in?
Oil appliances lag far behind, as far as "newer technology" is concerned.IMO.
It is not oil vs. gas, but what can I do to lessen my dependence on either. Like, new windows,more insulation,lower the thermostat,put on a sweater : )
I just bought new andersen windows,next year we plan to re-side the house, we'll add another 1" layer of board then.
Every little bit helps.

Steamhead (in transit)

That may still be true in some cases

but most of the larger utilities have changed their corporate structure so that the incoming gas supply (which they'd love us to believe is in a competitive situation- yeah right) is handled separately from the distribution network, which is a monopoly. This way the price of the product is not regulated. So they don't have to ask anyone to let them raise prices. They just do it.

Before Katrina hit I compared prices in the Baltimore area, and gas was noticeably more per BTU than oil. Once all the Katrina-related hysteria is over, I'll bet gas will remain significantly more expensive per BTU than oil.

Unknown

Simple answer

as someone who worked for a gas utility for 28 years and have been involved with gas for over 40 years and am also a gas customer (forced warm air). I have been burning pellets as my main heat source. Fuel cost for lst year $199.00 after burning two tons of pellets. I was able to lower my over all fuel cost for gas to under $300 for the year. So my total fuel bill was $500. This year it will be even lower as I have revamped my furnace blower system to move even more heat created by my pellet stove through the house.

I am never going to burn fossil fuels again if I can help it.

Ken D.

Oil-Gas

One big reason is that gas is not always available. Oil does give one a certain independence. I also believe oil has an edge in safety.

bob_50

Better?

60,500,000 houses heated with natural gas in USA. 8,500,000 houses heated with oil. Source, Energy Information Administration for 2001. Oil is available everywhere.

Tony_23

Hold on there

There is no error in my logic. I'm not for or against either fuel, I do both. I picked numbers that are current in my area and did the math. You said in your first post that oil at 140kbtu/gal is more economical than gas at 100kbtu/therm. You stated this w/o comparing the cost per unit and converting the units to btus. You seem to be the one who is biased...

Recently, before Katrina, oil was at 2.15/gal and LP on pre-buy was at 1.499/gal. That, if you do the math, is pretty much even.

When was the last time you read about someone digging up their basement or lawn after an oil tank leak ? How much did that cost ? How many houses burn down because of wood stoves ? Scare statements have no place in a logical, intelligent discussion on the cost differences between fuels. If you have to resort to that, your arguments lose credibilty. None of my gas piping jobs leak any more than my oil piping jobs.

Bob W._3

A perspective from the northern plains...

Suspect that oil prices would be much higher if there was a major switch across the country. It has to do with demand. NG is currently up to $1/CCF here. Part of the reason is that we are not building anymore coal or nuclear power plants; we are doing temporary solutions by erecting NG burning plants. There is a Cal-Pine plant going up in my town as we speak. Also, most manufacturing facilities are putting in their own power, and they are almost all gas. These large facilities can negotiate long term requirements contracts with the utilities. We can't. Gas prices will continue to rise, as will oil and LP. One or the other may have a temporary advantage for a period of time. Here, gas has traditionally been cheaper than oil per BTU consumed. I haven't seen a heating oil truck in years.

Folks here are starting to buy corn burners (modified pellet stoves) as we have a lot of corn.

Just my $0.02.

Constantin

I use oil, and gas is available here...

... trouble is, being at the Northeastern end of the distribution system, our gas prices are around $1.5+ per therm. Even at $2+ per gallon of #2 oil, natural gas in our area is more expensive on a $/BTU basis. Granted, the seasonal efficiency of a low-mass, condensing, modulating boiler is much higher than that of a minimally-efficient, "bang-bang" oil boiler, but there are efficient heating choices out there, whether you heat with oil or gas, you just have to be willing to pay for their installation in your home.

Keyspan, NSTAR, and all the other gas distribution companies have been running a very effective media campaign brainwashing homeowners into thinking that making a switch to gas will save them money, will result in less maintenance, and will result in cleaner basements and homes. To entice customers further, they offer $500 rebates on getting oil systems ripped out and replaced with gas-burning systems.

Now, a rational customer would ask: Why does the utility have to entice me with a $500 credit if gas is such a better choice? Like drug dealers, the gas monopolies have been signing up customers by subsidizing the first "hit". And, as the big oil companies seem to care less and less about the oil home heating market, low-sulfur fuel and other things that would make most oil-fired appliances as clean-burning as their gas cousins are difficult to get.

On the other hand, where does that gas come from? In our case, we get gas from as far as the Mexican Gulf (pipeline), the Texas panhandle (pipeline), the Canadian maritime provinces (pipeline), Algeria (LNG), and Trinidad/Tobago (LNG). So, the Northeast is quite vulnerable to supply disruption/importation issues, whether you deal with oil or gas. Our area has an excess of oil landing capacity, whereas the LNG facility is clapped-out.

I made my choice, I put in a brand-new oil system when I renovated my home last year. If I had less room in the basement, a low-mass, condensing, and modulating boiler would have been an excellent alternative. For that matter, my oil boiler can be converted to gas, and in Europe the manufacturer even offers a secondary HX to allow the flue gases to condense. Now, about that retrofit kit.... :-P

Steamhead (in transit)

How many of those

were development houses where the gas company offered incentives to builders so they would install gas?

Dirk Wright

Oil Heat Advantages

I use oil heat because it is safer, because it burns hotter, and because I can, in theory, burn a variety of fuels if necessary. Natural gas is comparatively dangerous and you are tied to the gas utility if you use it.

Burning wood, or wood products, is not environmentally friendly because it is about 20 times more dirty than burning oil or gas. Oil is virtually as clean as gas, and low sulfur oil is even cleaner. You'd be better off burning coal than wood, since coal is only about 10 times as dirty as gas or oil. The trees serve a better purpose standing up and cleaning the air than being burned up and keeping us warm in the winter.

Ron Schroeder_3

Just a gentle correction

Wood pellets are manufactured hee in British Columbia, from waste wood and from wood waste and recycled wood products. No additives are tolerted as the pellets are manufactures under intense heat and pressure. The wood's natural lignin is the adhesive.

Wood pelletsare agood source of home comfort as their combustion is considered to be zero sum from an environmental impact point of view. The CO2 released from combustion is equal to the CO2 released during decomposition.

Cordwood on the other hand is only as clean as the consciensious homeowner operating the appliance. The numerous American and Canadian manufacturers of outdoor nonpressurized boilers are exploiting all manner of safety and emmissions legislation with their monstrosities.

FYI, Shalom

Guy_6

Absolutely

If an oil company could be assured that a home, not just the current homeowner, would buy from them for the next 25 years, they too would offer such incentives. The turnover does not allow it.
As for technology in oil boilers- things have come a long way, but until we get a more consistent oil product, the technology can only go so far. Unfortunately consistent quality comes with significant costs as well.

JohnNY8

I'm sorry

I just don't get it.

The fact that oil is pretty much the root of all evil these days and the gas industry as a whole seems the lesser of two evils (not by much, granted), why do you guys keep defending the use of oil?



It's not that much cheaper than gas (if at all).


Much of the oil-burning equipment is not as efficient as gas equipment.


It is not safer, when you consider the damage caused by leaking oil tanks, spills, etc.


The maintenance needed far outweighs any benefits brought on by the use of oil.


The convenience of gas is undeniable.


And the use of oil in residential space heating is dwindling rapidly, anyway.

Bob W._3

Oil vs Gas

I still say it depends on what part of the country you live in more than anything else. Today's price on oil from my local coop: $2.39.9 for No. 1 and $2.29.9 for No. 2. Gas from Centerpoint Energy: about $1.00 per CCF (therm). Thats a no brainer for us. Yet, it looks like oil might be the better bargain in the Northeast. YMMV.

Bob W._3

Adding to that..

Wood pellets are about $160/ton and corn is $1.75/bushel.

Dirk Wright

No Future for Gas

Natural gas has no future because the wells here in the U.S. have already peaked, and the ones in Canada are about to. Importing natural gas is difficult and dangerous. LNG tankers are floating bombs. See Matthew Simmons for more about the future of the natural gas supply.

Oil burning equipment is versatile and very safe. They can burn a variety of fuels and produce very low CO compared to natural gas. The fuels burn hotter and they are easy to store.

I agree that gas equipment is very low maintanence compared to oil burning equipment.

ScottMP

No Future ?

Dirk, I suggest you look into the future for oil.

Theres no future for either of these fuels and we need to get going NOW, on finding a alternative.

Scott

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Ken D.

Fuels

I think we can all agree that the use of ALL fossil fuels is going to get a major facelift in the coming years as it well should. There is an extreme need for alternatives on a large scale. Weather it is going to be an expansion of current nuclear technology or something completely different remains to be seen. A new source will probably be used for electric generation, so electric heat is probably going to be the primary source in the future. The present gas distribution system would not be able to handle too much of an increase if everyone switched from oil to gas. LP is made out of the same stuff as fuel oil, so it is not an alternative to oil. What we really need is an Apollo Space Program type or a Manhattan Project type of effort to develope a better, cheaper, more reliable source of energy. The USA can do it! Alas, it is not likely with Oilmen in the White House and Congress. Just think, if we had plentiful alternatives to oil, the entire Mideast becomes irrelevant. What a concept! So in lieu of that pipe dream, oil and gas are here, at least for the foreseeable future. Unforseeable future, they will be as coal was to oil (I hope).

Dirk Wright

Biodiesel is possibly a future

That's why I'm sticking with an oil furnace. It can burn biodiesel with only a gasket change in the pump. There is such a thing as biogas, but it's not generally produced here. Some places put a big sheet of plastic over a landfill and collect all that methane and burn it to make electricity, but that's about it for biogas. On the other hand, biodiesel is very popular in the Midwest, and it's even available here in Virginia.

There is also a process called thermal depolymerization that turns trash into oil. Currently, Changing World Technologies have at least two plants up and running. One uses bird parts from a large turkey farm, I don't know what the other one uses.

Hope this helps.