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Brazil Energy

Tony Conner_2
Tony Conner_2 Member Posts: 443
in THE MAIN WALL
... not sure anyone has suggested that there's "no costs" associated with fossil fuels. So sign up to eng-tips.com and take montemayor to task for his statements.

Good luck. You'll need it :)

Comments

  • Wayco Wayne_2
    Wayco Wayne_2 Member Posts: 2,479
    I found myself

    watching Bill Mahr on TV last night. He had as guests some author I didn't know and Sen. Biden and Ben Afleck the actor. A comment was made about Brazil being on the verge of being energy self sufficient, and why couldn't we. What has Brazil done and how are they doing it. It's the first I heard of it, but the 3 guests all nodded as if it were common knowledge. Anyone out there got a link or resource I can read? WW

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  • singh
    singh Member Posts: 866
    Bill Mahr

    Funny guy. I watch all the time.

    Brazil produces ethanol from sugar cane. All of their cars are run on ethanol.
    I think over 80%. This was a policy started by their governement in the 70's.
    If it will work, time will tell.

    Just google Brazil and ethanol, you shall finr a myriad of info.

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  • Bill_24
    Bill_24 Member Posts: 26
    wayco

    > watching Bill Mahr on TV last night. He had as

    > guests some author I didn't know and Sen. Biden

    > and Ben Afleck the actor. A comment was made

    > about Brazil being on the verge of being energy

    > self sufficient, and why couldn't we. What has

    > Brazil done and how are they doing it. It's the

    > first I heard of it, but the 3 guests all nodded

    > as if it were common knowledge. Anyone out there

    > got a link or resource I can read? WW

    >

    > _A

    > HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

    > 255&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

    > Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

    > "Find A Professional"_/A_



  • Bill_24
    Bill_24 Member Posts: 26


    They are making ethenol from sugar cane. Most of todays newer vehicles can run on 85% ethanol or E85. I believe that E85 fueling stations are starting to pop up around the states, but has yet to catch on. I've seen a few commercials on the t.v. about it, something to do with the new energy bill, but the push is on. E85 does reduce fuel milage by about 30% if I recall correctly. Chystler is putting yellow? fuel caps on their new vehicles to let consumers know they are capable of running E85, plus if you have an older vehicle capable of using it they can get you a new fuel cap for your vehicle. I would provide a link if I could remember where I read it. I think it was C.N.N. or Money.com
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,163
    world enviromental conference

    i have been to brasil and just about all the vechiles are enthonal i believe they moved so fast is because in places like rio the air quality was very bad because they suffer from the same scenerno that los angeles suffers from smog .Also no one one is talking about all the natural gas and oil despoit that brasil has off the coast.They are the first country to do so and from what i was told the air quality in rio and other cities is better then it was less then 5 years ago.Brasil will one of the emerging countries when it comes to natural resourches they have discovered diamond and gold despoit that will revivaling
    south africa diamond miner except all these mineral despoits are on the native brazilians indian reserves now the goverment who granted and gave them this land is starting issues with mineral rights .I guess they would rather not have the natives being multi billionaires always trying to get a bite of some ones apples no matter where you go .Peace and good luck clammy

    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating

  • Tony Conner_2
    Tony Conner_2 Member Posts: 443
    From...

    ... an engineering board I frequent. It's written by a crusty old chemical engineer with the handle "montemayor" who's worked all over the world.

    "This subject has been studied and debated ad-nauseum. I did in-depth studies on ethanol production over 25 years ago and the outcomes were always bad for the viability or feasibility of ever producing a competitive energy source from ethanol. In order to compete the energy source has to be devoid of governmental subsidies and stand on its own economic merits.

    To address your specific questions:

    1. It doesn’t matter what the “yield” of ethanol is per bushel of corn. What matters is the rock bottom real price of the product alcohol – all-costs-in and including a reasonable profit for the producer. The obvious fact is that it doesn’t generate a profit, but rather it generates a net loss. Proof of this is that neither you nor I would invest in such a venture – unless, of course, we’re paid by the government with other tax payers money. This latter effect is what drives companies like Archer-Daniels and others to continue to make ethanol. They simply use our taxes to justify their production.
    2. It takes more total energy to produce the fuel-competitive ethanol than the energy it contains. If you have ever gotten remotely close to the Waste Agricultural industries, you will soon realize what the term “intensive labor requirement” means – and costs. It takes hydrocarbon energy to make the fertilizer, plant the corn seeds, run the tractors, harvest the cobs, transport the grain to the fermenters, etc., etc., …….
    3. I wouldn’t waste my time waiting for ethanol to “replace significant portions of the crude oil based refining or petrochemical industry”. I’ve got a lot of better and more interesting things to do – like watching all the windmills chugging along, trying to supply electricity to all the cities in the U.S.. As an Electrical Engineer, you should be in a good position to identify just how long that will take.

    The next time you read a press release on the subject, just bear in mind who wrote the article and their credentials as well as experience in the engineering realities. Most of these people spent their high school days sleeping through chemistry and physics classes."
  • Tony Conner_2
    Tony Conner_2 Member Posts: 443
    Second...

    ... post from "montemayor" in the same string:

    "Unlike the organization you cite (ACE), I have no corn to sell nor subsidies to receive. My opinion is based on my own factual experience and studies as an energy consultant and I have no interest group that I work for or under. Besides the energy sector, I've also worked directly in the agricultural waste product industry here in the USA. My personal experience has proven to me and to everyone associated with this industry that the labor market in the USA makes collecting any substance off a farm a very costly and prohibitive labor item.

    I also know more than a few things about Brazil since I've lived and worked there. I have first-hand knowledge that Brazilian alcohol is subsidized by the Brazilian government. That is the reason it exists. Otherwise, it couldn't justify its existance. What you call "cheap" turns out to be very expensive - all one has to do is review the economic status of Brazil today. It's national economy is teetering on bankruptcy. I also have difficulty trying to figure out how you can cite that the fuel in Brazil is also "cheap".

    I realize that the facts I cite are not pleasing to those of us who are hoping for the energy miracle that will save us from total depletion of fossil fuels and further atmospheric contamination. However, like any other engineer who has gone through many years preaching the truth to energy consumers I'm afraid that there is no credible technology waiting "in the wings" for us to employ. Hydrogen economy, solar energy, aeolic energy, geothermal, fuel cells, natual gas substitution, Gasahol, etc., etc., have all been looked at and they simply don't offer a total solution for the future. After 30 years since the Oil Embargo of the early 1970's we're still no closer to finding an answer to the energy replacement(s) for fossil fuels. All we've done is deplete our biggest and proven option: Nuclear Energy - something the environmental nuts should be very proud of. I predict the tree-huggers will all line up for Nuclear as soon as gasoline prices hit the $3.00/gallon level and their electric bills start to go up to the roof - which won't take long at the rate we'e going.

    In the meantime, the most practical and profitable use for Ethanol from sugar cane is still Rum."
  • Glen
    Glen Member Posts: 855
    profit??

    why would the yardstick of success change because it is a biomass fuel??? Oil companies enjoy huge subsidies and pay just a fraction for base oil stocks. But ethanol has to stand alone - without subsidy? That is not logical nor a fair comparison. Yes - some countries have success with alternative fuels - but they have smaller cars, fewer of them and the land mass to support biomass (corn) production. I must wonder aloud what will Exxon and others do when they truly extract the last drop out of mother earth? What will that precious bit of oil be worth? Or will it be proudly displayed in the Smithsonian?
  • JoeV
    JoeV Member Posts: 62
    We're screwed...

    As I was reading these posts, I started thinking that nobody needs to declare war on the U.S. or invade. We're are a major consumer nation. We consume everything. All an enemy needs to do is to put us on a forced diet.

    If China stops doing business with us,or even slows down, consumer goods skyrocket because of supply/demand; If the Middle East reduces their oil output, fuel costs more because of supply/demand; immigrant laborors leave because they may have to pay taxes which will reduce the pay for their hard work (or they are deported) and services become real expensive and delayed -again that supply/demand thing. Works for the labor pool too.

    We all need to become self sufficient and elect politicians who believe in self sufficiency. We're like the 500 pound guy who needs the fire department to get them out the door.

  • Tony Conner_2
    Tony Conner_2 Member Posts: 443
    It Takes...

    ... more energy to produce the crops and process the ethanol than you get out of it. While it certainly takes some energy to acquire conventional fossil fuels - gas, oil, coal - the net energy result is positive no matter how you slice it.

    You can read the whole string at:

    http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=151009&page=1
  • Garret
    Garret Member Posts: 111


    I believe the idea that ethanol has a negative net energy value is based on old research from the 1970s.

    Here's some newer work:

    From the US Department of Agriculture:
    http://www.ethanol.org/pdfs/energy_balance_ethanol.pdf

    From Argonne National Lab (Dept of Energy)
    http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/58.pdf

  • Tony Conner_2
    Tony Conner_2 Member Posts: 443
    I'd...

    ... put my money on "montemayor". This guy is SHARP, and he's spent the last 40 years designing & running chemical plants all over the world.

    You can sign-up and post on eng-tips.com for free. Join in the debate.
  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,163
    enthonal

    Not the greatest speller and i know they have software to fix it but i talk that way any way .Even though i know there are tax breaks and pay off what ever at least they are doing something the cost of oil will never drop down much sooner or later we all will be paying 5 bucks a gallon mark my words i believe in less then 2 years this will take place .People will either pay or walk and when that happens just watch how boi fuels will become the market place not to be potical but bio fuel will and does scare the top 3% percent it will sooner or later take the place of oil based fuels .So for the time being they will keep it expensive until they get there profit grabbing hands on the purse because no matter what any body says or thinks it's all about the top 3% and keeping every thing the way that it's been and always will be them on top us on the bottom .From a dummy just a view. peace and good luck clammy

    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating

  • ttekushan_2
    ttekushan_2 Member Posts: 57
    Whew!

    I'm so glad to learn that our petroleum use has no costs associated with it whatsoever...
  • Glen
    Glen Member Posts: 855
    rough numbers -

    to extract and process one barrel of oil consumes .25 barrels - to process heavy oil eg Alberta Tar sands about .55 barrels of oil. And the latest info now suggests that water resources are dwindling - even in the canadian north and have not yet been factored in. It still makes for expensive oil.
  • JCD
    JCD Member Posts: 19
    Link to Brazil Energy

    WW, The New York Times had an article yesterday(?) on Brazil's energy move. Try this link or look under most popular e-mailed articles on the NYT website. Might have to cut and paste this link for it to work on the browser.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/10/world/americas/10brazil.html?ex=1144900800&en=67cdf5cc49fb84f4&ei=5087

    The name of the article is - With Big Boost From Sugar Cane, Brazil Is Satisfying Its Fuel Needs. MN HO
  • Tony Conner_2
    Tony Conner_2 Member Posts: 443
    My Experience...

    ... with journalists writing about technical issues is not great. I used to work at a big oil-fired generating station, for a very large utility. Periodically, there would be stories about my particular plant, or the utility in general. Their accuracy on any technical matter was no better than 50-50. Among other things, the media used to routinely transpose the terms "effiency" and "availability". Hey, they were both percentages...

    My money is still on the old chemical engineer who actually lived and worked in Brazil for a period of time.
  • Glen
    Glen Member Posts: 855
    signed in

    as suggested. That looks like quite the forum. Which thread should I be looking for? back to our other discussion - it is suggested that a 160 buck barrel will slow our thirst slightly. Even coal reserves - thermal coal - have about 250 years of reserves worldwide. If we gasify these (powered the Hitler Army) it reduces it to about 50 years. It suddenly makes biodiesel look really good.
  • Rodney Summers
    Rodney Summers Member Posts: 748


    I lived in brazil.They have small highspeed roadways.All the trucks are loaded to the max.The cars are so tiny.That system could never work here.Everything is set up for "agresive driveing".Remember the average age of Brizil is 23,the average age of Amarica is 46.You would really have to see it to understand.
  • Tony Conner
    Tony Conner Member Posts: 549
    It's...

    ... in the Chemical Process Engineering section. The string is "Ethanol Production".

    http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=151009&page=1
  • Constantin
    Constantin Member Posts: 3,796
    the funny thing is,

    there are credible studies out there from institutions that have little to nothing to gain from promoting ethanol or other "biofuels" as alternatives that show a net energy gain of 0.66 or thereabouts.

    For most of its life, the Brazilian experiment was derided by a lot of interest groups because oil was cheap and ethanol was not. Environmentalists didn't like the vast swathes of rainforest going up in smoke to make way for sugar cane fields, cars needed much larger fuel tanks b/c of the lowe energy content, etc. Yet, whenever there is a energy crisis, the Brazilian experiment is held up high as a beacon of hope.

    Several web sites that I visited claim that ethanol production in Brazil is no longer subsidized as of 1995. Perhaps the "crusty" engineer you cite worked in the industry before then.
  • Mitch_4
    Mitch_4 Member Posts: 955
    it should be noted too

    that there are subsidy payments to NOT grow crops, what cost does that factor ? let them grow corn and sell it to the ethanol processors, eliminate the no crop payments, and as the technlogy improves the cost of production goes down. Brazil having done this since what 1975(?)had to help in the costs, but dropped the subsidy in '95 because it is no longer required, the economy is geared to ethanol, and due to MASS production and high demand, it is now cheaper to produce...

    look at computers...I bought my first P1 computer and paid about 5x for that 200MMX processor than I did for my new 3 GHz pentium, and I have 15X the power at 1/5 the price.

    as the product demand increases, and the more comon it is, the lower the production costs become.

    That is what happened in Brazil, and it can happen elsewhere, and because it is from crops, it is litterally endless, and North America, can be the world supplier as we (Canada and USA) have more farm land than almost anywhere..

    the futur is being grown...
  • Tony Conner_2
    Tony Conner_2 Member Posts: 443
    If It's...

    ... a real money-maker that can stand on it's own feet, why aren't there ethanol plants popping up everywhere in North America - particularly with the current price of fuel?

    As far as studies go, always try to find out who's funding them. Funny enough, if a particular group has a given agenda, the study will generate findings that support the position of the funding body. It works the same with polls. It's quite amazing, really.

  • singh
    singh Member Posts: 866
    false hope

    Is my opnion. But it can be a short term solution , not a long term solution.

    What no one talks about is soil depletion to grow crops,fertilizers,pesticides, all based on cheap oil. Cars are still made in factories that run on cheap oil, tires need replacing, all on cheap oil. Once we reach that tipping point, bio fuels as will all alternatives , come crashing down with it.

    Let's face it , the future is bleak. A good pair of walking shoes will be our best bet.

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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    What Singh said...

    You have to look at it from the TOTAL environmental cost and impact. I understand saw grass is a better option than corn for producing ethanol. THe problem is, Big Ag doesn't have a patent on the genetic codes for saw grass like they do hybrid corns.

    We need to look and think outside the yellow box...

    ME
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,663
    Presumptions

    Read the article Tony....I'm sure you'll find the NYT has better than average technical reporting.

    I learned that sugar cane has an 8:1 energy ratio when ethanol is extracted verses a 1.3:1 for corn. The energy minister says that a 10:1 ratio may be obtainable within 5 years. I wonder where the US will be growing cane??

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  • Tony Conner_2
    Tony Conner_2 Member Posts: 443
    Check...

    ... how things are being calculated. Is EVERYTHING being included leading up to the point where the ethanol is ready for use as a fuel? It's all about knowing the costs of doing business - whatever business you're in.

    The NYT actually hires journalists that are also chemical engineers? Really? I'm not aware that journalism majors and chemical engineering students share all that many classes at university. Who'da thunk it... Anyway, they should get on over the eng-tips.com and kick that old chemical engineer around for being so ill informed :)
  • Wayco Wayne_2
    Wayco Wayne_2 Member Posts: 2,479
    Wow!

    Thanks for the replys guys. I find it interesting that some find it necessary for new energy sources be able to stand on their own. In Europe their marvelous mass transit train system is heavily subsidized by the Government because of high energy costs. How is that different from priming the pump on a new energy source such as Ethenol? The Government has to keep production in the Economy going somehow. I'm wondering about how we are going to make steel with only electricity, not to mention making plastic without oil. Some interesting challenges ahead for our culture. WW

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  • Mitch_4
    Mitch_4 Member Posts: 955
    I come from a family of farmers.

    Certainly soil depletion can be a concern,but there are methods to control that, same with organics for fertilizer and pesticides.

    Modern farming is hi tech, you can genetically engineer seeds for fuel use, organic waste from foor processing plants make excellent fertilizer ( and recycles the waste) crop rotation and composting and no till planting address the soil erosion issue. Check out some family farms that have been in the business for HUNDREDS of years..theie soil is not being depleted...there are ways and ways.

    But I agree about the shoes...
  • Tony Conner_2
    Tony Conner_2 Member Posts: 443
    I'm Not Sure...

    ... that you can equate the philosophy behind mass transit subsidies with those provided to ethanol producers.

    I can't help but notice that nobody here has posted anything on the "Ethanol Production" string on the engineering board. I'm waiting for the pro-ethanol types to get over there and beat Montemayor's position like a rented mule. Warm & fuzzy vs cold technical & economic reality. I know who I'm betting on :)
  • leo g_13
    leo g_13 Member Posts: 435
    just on a small scale

    my father "built" his backyard garden about 60 years ago. From the pics that I have seen to the present day, he actually added topsoil. Lots of compost and chicken manure. I will see if he will "dig" up those old photo's and try to post them for you, and some of today.

    Leo G

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  • Glen
    Glen Member Posts: 855
    Tony -

    I have read that string and a few others (auto diesel - stoichiometric)and I agree. Not yet viable when all costs tossed in - so if current subsidies are included and offered to biodeisel users - will we keep rolling in our suv's. I am working with a felloww that maintains that his horse is the best idea. He might be right.
  • Maine Doug_29
    Maine Doug_29 Member Posts: 5
    When I was

    living in Switzerland and the UK, I was told that the subsidy for mass transit was less costly than building roads and parking lots and that mass transit was more fuel efficient per passenger mile.


    >>>In Europe their marvelous mass transit train system is heavily subsidized by the Government because of high energy costs. <<<<
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    New Orleans...

    ain't gonna be much of any good after the next hurricane season. Might as well start up a sugar cane factory there. Rich soils, plenty of water... LOTS of available help...

    ME
  • Wayco Wayne_2
    Wayco Wayne_2 Member Posts: 2,479
    Mark

    You got my vote. Go on and run for office. We need somebody to take some kind of lead in this country. I can't believe they are going to rebuild down there. I hope their smart about it and build everything on stilts. WW

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  • Wayco Wayne_2
    Wayco Wayne_2 Member Posts: 2,479
    Doug

    When I was in Belgium earlier this month, we passed by the train station in Bruges. In the parking lot were several thouand bikes and a handful of cars. Our bus was by before I could get my camera ready, but it made a big impression on me about how things have to change at the level of civic infrastructure back to a city, or town center type of society so we don't depend on cars so much. WW

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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    They won't be Wayne...(smart about it)

    Your gubernmint dollars inaction...

    They will continue to make the same stupid mistakes that they have been making for oh, the last 200 years...

    I feel really badly for the people who were and are displaced. I just can't imagine losing my home. But to rebuild in the same spot, with all the potentials still existing is sheer stupidity. And they're doing it at the expense of taxpayers.

    If I build a home in the middle of the forest, and a fire comes and wipes it out, that was my decision to build there, and I shouldn't burden the taxpayers with my stupidity.

    Such is not the case in N.O.

    With all the global weather changes occuring, I think we will see monster storms this year that are unprecedented, and the levees will fail again, and again, and again.

    It is not a good idea to live below sea level near the coast. Sorry if I offended anyone with my remarks. I'm just sick and tired of seeing my hard earned dollars going to support bad things. That's all. The soap box is now available....

    ME
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    I think I brought up those points last year

    Right after Katrina flattened everything.......I feel much the same way as you Mark. If they want to rebuild as is/where is, that's their perogative. I just fail to see the sense in it. I know, I know, it's their home and sentimentality gets involved and I understand being compassionate and all the other arguements for rebuilding those places. JUST DON"T DO IT WITH MY TAX DOLLARS! If they want it the way it was, they can do it with private donations or their own funds. San Fransico and Chicago were both rebuilt with investments from private industry and the people who lived there. Read the histories of those events, it's in there.

    I have made many, many mistakes in my life. Dad would cover my tracks when I botched something in the store financially. The first time. The second time I made the same error however was a different story. Then it came out of my pocket. Guess which mistake I learned from? Same for the Gulf Coast. I'm all for helping those poor souls to get relocated, re-established, re-housed re-etc. However, it is shear folly and a waste of commodities, money included, to redo those places in the manner and location they were before the storms.

    Write your congressmen and tell them what you think. We have to balance the ranting of the fourth dimension, er, estate, er..., whatever the press/news media calls themselves, with some rational, realistic thought.
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