tN4

hydronicsmike

Just wondering if you guys have any feedback to offer.

Have you used it? What did you think? Is is easier to install? Does it give you more options? Is there anything you would like to see it do or offer that is doesn't at the moment?

Feedback is always appreciated!!

Regards,

Mike

Pinball

I like it!

I find it easier to install,program, and troubleshoot.

I would suggest a way to either put in a 80va transformer or
a small "plug-in blue" addition that would match the existing enclousure, and handle the full six zones.
The 541 t'stats (RTU'S) are finally a "one size fits all unit"
that will work with anything.
Also the manuals are easy to understand and have become my Right arm while programing, and troubleshooting. A very straight foward approach, that uses common sense explaining of the operation. To all who are considering making the "switch" JUST READ THE MANUAL and GO FOR IT!

Al

Josh_10

I like it alot too. I won't install a system without a TN4. It makes me look good when my customers gas bills are low. I don't think it is necessarily less complicated though. There are alot more perameters. After the first few though it will be like second nature. The thermostats are simply genuis. I like to have a slab sensor tied into each one. This gives me the option setting a high limit one each zones floor covering so you don't overheat. My customers also like being able to see what the outdoor air temp is right froom their thermostat.

Lot's of options and endless possiblities. I am doing a hybrid system right now and I can us the TN4 for both heating and cooling.

Al Letellier_9

tN4

Great stuff and a big improvement, as the others have said. Have a couple extra fuses around when you start up....the wiring is very sensitive to nicks and bare wires and can short very easily. Make sure and take extra care when stripping that Tstat wire and you'll be OK...only problem we've had with the 5 systems we've installed to date.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Paul Rohrs_5

Ditto's to what Josh said.

I REALLY like the "zone syncronization" and abilities of the stats to "see" the history of each zone. Very Nice.

Mike,

You have seen some of my applications for:

New construction

Single temp- radiant floor heat (low-temp)

Zoning by circulator (multiple zones)

mod/con boilers

DHW on priority


With that in mind, I would like to see the "conditional priority" function be modified to conform to the above parameters for DHW production. The only way I can see that happening is to take the "Primary Loop" contacts and give us a dip switch for variable speed injection functions to be used with Mode 2 & Mode 4 settings for DHW. Variable speed primary loop can again, reset the temp to the secondary zone circulators as DHW nears setpoint and the modulating boilers "Ramp-down" and have BTU's available for space-heating mode. (Your thoughts ???)

I am looking forward to the S118 class in Des Moines, IA next month. I might have a few more questions after that.

This is such a great package. Even with the new Lochinvar Knight boiler that has alot of these features "on-board", the tekmar TN4 package will complete the ensemble very nicely.

Regards,

PR

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

i haven't yet...

but i'm installing my first in the next couple of weeks or so (depending on when my wholesaler can be bothered to procure the goods for me i'll let you know how it goes though.

hydronicsmike

Thanks you guys for the feedack!!

Thanks you guys for the feedack!! Be sure to call our local Rep or our offices for any help we can provide.

Visit www.tekmarcontrols.com to source the Representative in your area, should you not know who he is, or call 250-545-7749.

Paul, please call me when convenient for you. I have a couple of questions to ask you regarding your feedback.

Thanks,as always...

Mike

Jerry_15

Fuse the transformer, or one strike and you're out.

Terry H.

Paul I'll see you in Des Moines next month. I was in the S117 class last week, I'll have to admit the zone synchronization had me perplexed. I guess I couldn't see how it could be more efficient than the zone load coordination I was used to. After running lots of calculations on the chalk board I came to the conclusion that it was virtually a dead heat gas efficiency wise (with mod/con boilers).

Terry H.

Unknown

We do like it, but there are a few things. First, two stage stat operation seems to be pretty itchy to run the second stage quickly. This is dissapointing to us, as we use two-stage stats to minimize the runtime of backup heat. Hopefully this will be addressed in future releases.

Second, we have some issues with "auto differentials" for boiler operation. Not good. Setting a differential makes the problems go away, but it would be nice if "auto differential" worked correctly.

I think there are a few other small issues, but it's a pretty new line, you're always going to get those. For the most part it seems solid so far and the possibilities it's opening up with the gateways coming out make me drool. data logging anyone? REMOTE TROUBLESHOOTING???? darn tootin!!!

hydronicsmike

Zone Synchronization vs. Zone Load Coordination

Zone Load Coordination allows for a more steady heat load on the heat source and a more constant flow rate in the system, regardless of overall load in the system (load may still be small on boiler).

Zone Synchronization allows the load on the boilers to be maximized at the beginning of each heating cycle to eliminate boiler short cycling caused by low loads. (Load on boiler should be 100% at the start of a cycyle).

Hope this makes sense. Sophisticated communication across the tN4 Network opens up many avenues to increase system efficiency. This is powerful stuff guys!!

Regards,

Mike

hydronicsmike

Rob....

...thanks for the feedback. the Gateways and Data Loggin Stuff is just around the corner... you'll have it soon.

I will check into the AUTO DIFF you mentioned. Would you mind giving me a ring at your convenience to update me on the other 2-stage operation issues you said you have? PI Staging is making sure that it would operate as you desire.

As always, best regards and say hello to good ole' Dave!!

Mike

Unknown

Mike, I appreciate your interest. It's pretty simple, really. The 2nd stage does not attempt to max out stage one output before kicking on the second stage. it seems "reluctant" to increase first stage output and instead bleeds in 2nd stage operation. We don't want that.. we want to work the 1st stage to capacity before operating 2nd stage (typically less efficient) heat emitters. Especially with radiant, I'd rather have the floors feel warmer before using another heat source!!

Secondly, it seems *very* particular... as in, opening the door to the outside for a few seconds can trigger 2nd stage operation. I'm a little surprised at this given the normal "cycle" method that tekmars usually use to evaluate temperatures, I wouldn't expect a simple momentary event to trigger 2nd stage.

It would be nice if 2nd stage operation had some parameters we could adjust, such as delayed start, and setting what conditions would result in a 2nd stage call (perhaps settings for 2nd stage trigger after: max 1st stage output reached only, when acceleration is needed out of setback, etc).

Finally, 2nd stage heat can occasionally result in temperature overshoots, which shut down the 1st stage as well as the 2nd stage. absolutely *not* what we would hope for in an ideal situation and again quite surprising given the normal precision we expect from Tekmar controls.

hydronicsmike

everything you say makes sense and this is how...

...the thermostats would typically operate. These thermostats are a lot smarter than me (story of my life;) ), and if they bring on stage two before stage 1 is at max, then it sees a need for it based on rate of temperature change and degree of error.

I understand what you are saying, but the guys working on the software for us are amazing!! Not saying that they know everything there is to know about everything, but so far they have yet to give me a reason to question what they do.

Maybe it is just what you are observing in a drastically changing environment and you should give the stats a chance to learn what they have to learn. Things should get better.

I have actually taken a a tN4 System just now and created a little setup in a controlled environment. I can duplicate your findings when a create a large condition change but not when it is somewhat steady, which I would assume a residence to be.

Anyways, thanks again for the feedback. You know where I am at if you like to discuss further.

As always,

Mike

Unknown

You rock Mike

I'm sure there are lots of factors at work. But for us, there is one golden rule. You never, ever, ever shift load from the radiant until it is at max capacity, unless you are coming out of setback. Period.

I personally would love to be able to completely lock out second stage heat unless one of those two conditions are met. There is no other situation where we would wish to artificially keep the floors cooler than they should be. First resort should be to raise the primary mix temp to a max value, then proceed to the reluctant, kicking and screaming ugly BAD second stage heat

and, if there is an overshoot due to second stage operation.. the first stage shouldn't shut down. That may slightly lengthen an overshoot, but that is of less concern to us than a suddenly cooling floor under a "full load" condition! Remember there is far more at work here than air temp. We are directly controlling sensible comfort with the floor temps that are in direct contact with our clients' feet.


I guess in a nutshell Mike, our clients are buying warm floors. All the rest of the benefits are fantastic and I am certainly not inconsiderate of them (as I hope you think is obvious!), but goal number one is making sure the floor is warm, consistently, as much as possible and as warm as possible. Every other aspect of Tekmar's product lines (PWM Tstats, other controllers) get us to this goal, except this one thing. As you know we love Tekmar and you guys have definitely earned our enthusiasm a hundred times over through the years... but at this point, when talking 2nd stage stat control, we are seriously considering going back to two thermostats on the wall, one for radiant, one for 2nd stage set one degree lower. absolutely not what we wish to do, needless to say!!

As always Mike.. your interest and attentiveness is a credit to both you and your employer. Always a pleasure!

Eric_25

Teknet not yet

Haven't tried it yet, I installed a 371 house control in my house last year shortly before I found out about the Tekmarnet system, I am kicking myself now I spent way too much on the 371 to trash it unless you take a tradein. BTW my wife hates the 054 sensors, I am going to try an 055 to see if she likes it better, she can't read the dial and there is no thermometer so she can't tell if it is warm or cold in the house (she is one of those customers). My other problem in my own house which I believe is the same on the Teknet system is the fact that we cannot use the same thermostat for heating and cooling, I have three cooling zones in my house, I would not have bought the 371 if I had realized this before I installed it.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Unknown

The sensor thing is funny. I've had some clients that like the simplicity of the 054s (man, trying to show them how to program a 507.. hehe) and others that really like the digital.

The 371 can take one cooling zone. It pays to read the data brochures before dropping hundreds of dollars on a controller

It's not Tn4, but man, sometimes that 371 is still the best choice for the job. If you have up to a five zone hybrid system (radiant/BB) on a conventional boiler, you still can't beat it with a stick for simple installation and rockin' performance.

But, you do lose one important thing; you can't see what the 371 is thinking... no digital readouts of what it thinks the room temp is, outdoor temp is, supply water temp is... being able to see that stuff on the newer controls sure makes troubleshooting a lot easier. "Hey, the controller says it's 0 degrees outside, it's raining and I'm hot as heck... huh!"

Stinks you bought too quick though. Maybe you'll have a <5 zone hybrid system coming up with clients that can't program their VCRs? Could cut them a deal...

hydronicsmike

Thanks for the kind words

I appreciate your (and everyones) feedback. Please give this stat a chance to learn its environment and then we'll revisit this situation, if you don't mind. What we do not want is two stats on the same wall controlling the same zone. The thermostat will do what it is supposed to, meaning stage two will only come on when the first stage is at 100%. If yours is not doing it, you need to call me, but let it have a chance to get 'smarter'.

As always, a pleassure having you around Rob. Wish I could have caught up with you at any of the recent shows!! I just know we would have hours of fun just chatting about the different scenarios.

Mike

hydronicsmike

Sorry to hear Eric,..

I don't think there is much I can do to make your wife like the 054s, but call me in the office and we'll see if I cannot help you out any other way.

250-545-7749, Ext. 214.

Regards,

Mike

Unknown

Thanks Mike. The current stat isn't going anywhere, but the issue here is this is a periodic use house that is seeing the issues. It's not seeing the issues just coming out of setback.. they stay there for several days.. but I'm not sure this is a very good 'learning' environment for the stat?

What do you think? Is it smart enough to figure things out in shorter time intervals (few days at a time) like that, or will the "imprinting" of the longer setback periods cause a problem?

I wasn't even aware that these puppies learn.. got a white paper I can read on it?

Man, tekmar just gets cooler and cooler. Learning stats Can I teach them to do heat load calculations???? I'm busy over here!!

hydronicsmike

It can learn to deal with....

...similar situations. In other words, if it ever had exposure to a similar condition, it will remember. If it wasn't bang on the last time, it will modify its behaviour.

There is a lot of stuff that I don't even get told about the (way over my head) sophisticated algorithm some of our very phenomenal R&D staff think about.

I think I mentioned this before a few times, but the blue boxes are more a part of me than I am a part of the blue boxes. I first came across a tekmar Control when I first moved to Canada in 1996. I fell in love with the company and the products offered at the time. This is what I love. Just seeing how far the company has gone even in just the past 6 years alone, I can tell you...there is much much more...Going to work is fun!

You're working late Rob....I love your enthusiasm.

hydronicsmike

Jerry...

...the transformer is fused.

Call me....please.

Mike

Terry H.

Mike, Yea it does make sense I was just having a hard time explaining it to my self. The instructor's explination wasn't as good as yours. I probly confused him more than he helped me. It only took me three days of chalkboard examples.

As far as electrical efficiency the only time the zone load cordination gaines is when the control puts two zone output cycles back to back, and allows the pump to run continuously through the end of one cycle and the beginning of the next. I know this does happen But how often?

Thanks

Terry H.

hydronicsmike

Thanks Terry

If I can ever help you understand some of the controls features and functions, please don't hesitate to call me. Is always my pleassure....

Have a great day.

Mike

Unknown

just commissioned my first tN4 system the other day, installation was a breeze, system setup/thermostat programming was a little daunting at first but like anything the first time is a little tough. did have a little heating/cooling crossover glitch though, the master and slave stat were having a heat/cool duel. and when I tried to add the heat only slave stat to a cooling group, it had a freakout and displayed an error for a while. so i'll be calling for some advice on that. overall I really like it and have a couple more jobs coming up that i spec'd it on. i'd better take the course!