Big Problem w/smith water bounce

off2fly

Just Installed 2 smith 4500 boilers,for supreme court and having problem educating owners in difference of large volume steel boiler's and low volume castiron boilers.Cleaned and flushed boilers and feedwater tank with TSP and boilers ran great for 40+ hours.Their chem. company started treating boiler feed water and used a nalco 2567 multi. purpose cleaner Then we started getting low water cut off nuisance call's,We skimmed and cleaned again few days later same trouble.Drained feedwater tank and boiler unhooked chemicals.Boilers ran perfect two weeks until chemical hooked up again.Now owner won't believe chemicals could cause any problem.Please Help!

bob young

send reg. letter

any unauthorized changes or additions to your installation should release you from your warranty. if they are unreasonable ,retain an attorney. you will probably need one

Ted_13

chemicals

What's their reason for chemically treating the water? The boiler does not require chemical treatment, in fact they will reduce the life expectancy and efficiency of the boiler by coating the insides of the castings. It's equivilent to driving on the highway with one foot on the brake.

[Deleted User]

Sounds like a classic

example of too high PH (8 - 10.5 max) or high dissolved solids from cleaning the rest of the system & washing into the boiler. The TDS problem can normally be resolved by more frequent blow downs.

Chemicals can be beneficial to the boiler & system. However, they must be introduced properly. Many chem guys think they can do steam the way they do water. Not.

Our customers use 2 methods of treatment for steam. Add chems once per month based on tests at the same time. Or. Meter chemicals into the boiler feed tank only when the tank takes on fresh water. Still need to test at least once per month. The pump & drum combo, by itself, never works for cast iron steam boilers.

Guy_6

4500

Where is this boiler located. I can arrange for either myself or another of the commercial Smith reps. to visit the site and see whst is happening first hand. Let me know.

Guy Woollard
Mestek/ Smith Boiler Co.
508-930-6448
GWoollard@Mestek.com

off2fly

Re:classic case

Guy,I would loveto meet you at this job.They are holding my money.

off2fly

Can you imagine litagation w/supreme court?

off2fly

They said they must protect their 60+Yr.piping and their new feedwater tank.The engineer has some kind of chemical engineer in his office who was I think, a navel boiler specialist or something,I'm not sure tht would matter alot being most navel/military, I'm aware of is High volume,steel and mostly high pressure.The cast iron low volume high output boiler is a different CAT!Most that I have beat on in the last20 years anyway.????????????????

Ted_13

Here's what they're doing

to the inside of the boiler to save their piping. These are nipples from a mills boiler from a school in CT. The returns were leaking and they were feeding it chemically treated hard well water. It still lasted almost 50 years. You'll see that one shot is of a piece of the casting which is plugged solid. Some of the scale has actually fallen out of it. When I got it it was filled to the top. Dan has always said "fix the return piping", I concur. I would explain the economics of replacing a piece of pipe compared to replacing a Mills boiler.

Maybe you could provide an email address so that the tax payers on this site could help them see the light.

off2fly

I sent some guys there yesterday to switch the boiler feedwater lines to that tee in the center return yoke.They were tied in the tee normally capped behind rh ret.drum as engineer detailed.Anyway lots of crap/gunk as i suspected.I was going mon. to clean boiler again but engineer prefers that I don't. I,m sure the relocation of feed water entry won't make any difference.And I'm certain the multipurpose cleaner they introduced to the system has loosened debris from throughout system piping and all the crap ends up in my boilers.I feel like it will take a verylong time to get this system to settle down.And I as contractor and smith boilers are getting the black eye.You know it seems to me that the feedwater tank pump's would be better pulling not directly off bottom of tank so that the sediment could be blown down before entering boiler??Must be a good reason why,i just don't know it.Thank's for any help!

Tony Conner_2

You Can't...

... make blanket statements about water treatment. Every application has it's own quirks and requirements. There are at least as many problems are caused by chronic overfeeding of chemicals as are caused underfeeding.

Make-up water is the key. If there's no make-up water for steam boiler systems, then there's essentially no need for water treatment.

Tony Conner_2

The Water Treatment...

... for boilers is not the same as what's required for protecting condensate lines. They're two separate adventures. You can easily do one, or the other, or both depending on what's required or desireable.

Sometimes deposits are from the water, and sometimes it's from grossly overfeeding chemicals.

A properly run chemical program - if and when required - will leave you with a nice clean system, with essentially no metal loss from corrosion.

To me, if a boiler is running fine for days/weeks with no water treatment, but problems arise shortly after the chemical feed is started, then that strongly suggests the chemical program is the problem. Could be the wrong product for the application, or (more often) overfeeding.

off2fly

Yes tony,it seems very logical that with no chemicals,boilers run great,with chemical's they don't.You would think that someone with a engineering degree would say (MAYBE IT"S THE CHEMICALS)He insist the chemical engineer in his office says that the chemicals in the water can't cause the problem's.The building is 106 yr.old.Let's dose it up good and clean and protect those pipes.LOL!Thanks for the input!

Tony Conner_2

If The...

... guy in charge of the water treatment program says chemicals can't cause mechanical problems, what's he basing that statement on? Has he (or anyone) run some water treatment tests on boiler water samples? This testing should have been done before ANYTHING was added, then again periodically to make sure that the various levels are remaining within the prescribed limits.

How much make-up water is being added to this system? That's one of the key factors.

off2fly

The guy in charge of the chemicals is a girl,and I tried to stress the importance of just treating the water when the makeup solinoid energizes.She presantly injects chemicals anytime a feedwater pump is energized!She states the water is perfect and crystal clear.We checked yesterday and found PH 10.5 and water has lots of debris suspended in it.

Tony Conner

The ...

... fact that the water is clear, is meaningless. What are the water treatment parameters suggested by the boiler manufacturer? Is she running any tests to see if those targets are being met, or is she just assuming? I'd bet that the TDS/conductivity readings are off the top of the scale.

off2fly

screwed

Tony the water is'nt even close to clear.Smith wants the water ph to be 8-9.I'm not sure about the tds.I do know they intrduced the 2587 multipurpose cleaner because the pine like smell in the water would almost knock you out.Then they said what we were smelling was airfreshner that the sample bucket had previously held. BS! Everyone there smelled how strong the smell was, and while skimming boiler onto floor. Now they are denying putting it in the system.What i need is to find someone to detect it in the system.We did a super job installing these boilers,it is truly a great looking job,and i'm getting the black eye over a chem. co. that has'nt a clue.

Guy_6

Aware

I have contacted the Rep. for that area, and apparently they are very aware of the issue. They have been working with one of our top engineers for the correct answer, or perhaps questions ,in an effort to resolve the problem. They will contact you again this week to continue.

Guy

off2fly

Guy,thanks for responding,I know SE Burke has been in contact with you guys and is a excellant company to deal with we have had great service and worked on other projects with excellant results.I know they are also as flustrated as I.Thank's, Vann

ttekushan_2

the right amount...

I totally disagree with the blanket statement that water treatment chemicals are bad. If they are being injected as they are here everytime the feedpump operates TOO MUCH material is being injected! They are added to essentially compensate for make up water. If the boilers are blown down on a schedule based on the number of boiler operational hours, you know how much that should be.

The clarity of the water in conjunction with a violent water line indicates to me that the pH is way too high. Period. They are adding to much.

By the way, the boiler installation process can introduce oils and other impurities to the system. Cleaning the boiler doesn't do anything but, um, clean the boiler. The water treatment chemicals may carry over and clean whatever was in the near boiler piping on initial steaming and wound up occluded in the netherworld of piping and load. This all winds up on the surface of water.

I personally have instituted water treatments for just this purpose. Blowdowns may never remove the surface impurities. I just did a system cleaning with the kind of water treatment that is faulted with "causing" water level problems. The reason I was there was that the system was grossly imbalanced and one main heated fast and furiously and the other "panted" for a good 15 minutes until all the radiator vents closed on the other one. The water line was STABLE. The boiler was installed 5 years before and this problem has persisted since. I put in the appropriate amount of treatment and the water line went crazy, lifting most of the water out of the boiler. I then skimmed. Repeated. Then installed a surface blow off valve, drained to the floor. If I left this valve partially open during firing, the water line would stabilize after a while. But shortly after closing it (and condensate all returned) the water line would start to bounce again. So I left it partially open for two days. Yes some steam escaped, but the impurities left the surface cycle by cycle with the wet steam. With the process completed, the water line is stable with the water treatment applied.

Remember the "panting" and gross imbalances that were there from the time of the boiler replacement? Gone. The system is quiet and balanced for the first time in 5 years.

Good water treatments work when applied properly.

Jerry_15

Let's see if I understand this: No chemicals, it works. Chemicals, it don't work. Same answer as with the Pro-Press. You drag the rep down there behind the chariot and let them explain it. Better yet, cut off the chemicals, let it work perfectly as a "test", and then let them justify their product to the owner. If the water is that bad, put in a nice filter on the feed, I've never understood chemical treatment on a non-consuming system, but then I wasn't selling an endless supply of bug juice. BILL THEM FOR YOUR TIME AND TROUBLE, THEY'LL PAY. It's a jungle out there, you have to learn how to swing from the vines.

Jerry_15

I love it. Made another post down belowon this issue.

Jerry_15

On that regimen there may not be any water left in the system. You could be running pure chemicals as the system is overiding the boiler feed, while the water steams off gradually. How nmuch bug juice has this thing gone through? Drain it down a bit and try it with H20.