Cast Iron v.s Black Malleable on steam systems

ScottMP

A speed grinder to cut off the fittings ?? And you don't damage the threads ?? Maybe if its steam but with water or gas ...... I would'nt do it.

By the way Jerry, how do you know when I started :)

Scott

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B . Martino

Cast Iron v.s Black Malleable on steam systems

I am a plumber at a community hospital that is in the
middle of a 50 million dollar expansion. The engieering
firm has specified black malleable fittings on the steam
as opposed to Cast Iron. I say any pipefitter worth his
weight would never use black malleable. They told me I
was old school. whats the opinion out there!!!!

Jerry_15

The main reasons the old timers I knew used cast/screwed was that they were cheaper than malleable, and you could break them out if had to work on it later. On this coast the pricing has changed, and supply houses aren't stocking cast like they used to. I agree cast makes the better job (although they are hard on the wrench jaws), tell your customer it will cost them more to get less (that usually works) but you can't fight ignorance, and I've never seen a black fitting wear out, even when I've found them in potable water lines, unlike the galvie and dialectric unions (what a scam). Just remember the three rules of contracting: "Get the money, get the money and...You know.

Tony Conner_2

What's...

... the safety valve set pressure? If it's over 125 (not the operating pressure - the safety valve setting), then 125 CI won't meet code.

Malleable iron is simply cast iron that has been heat treated to eliminate the brittleness. Making the material less brittle gives it a little more pressure rating. 150 vs 125, and 300 vs 250. Other than that, they're identical.

bob young

times change

i am also a plumber that started with steam fittings . we even used them for plbg. venting circuits. they used to be cheaper than mal. now they are more expensive. cast looks much more professional . malleable, you can get that extra half turn without the fitting locking up on you. price is big item with customers. if you wish to make money----malleable it is . in the old days i would not even dream of using anything but cast iron on steam or hot water. it was not done. times change.

Jerry_15

Glad you guys agree, you can't fight progress, if that's what it is; but when I'm tearing one out I sure love to see those cast fittings. They can't believe I can get it cut loose in fifteen minutes playing the anvil chorus. Then I go to lunch. It was always amazing to me that the cast cost less. Guess they figured that one out.

Big Ed

New School

Years ago it was you or the only other plumber that was going back to repair and without a Sawzall to boot...

Jerry_15

Sawzall? Can you imagine a greater hell than having to saw off a 2 1/2 or bigger fitting and then do what? wrench the nipple out of the other fitting? Or just thread it in place. (I've done that on 2" and under). Cast iron I tie on to the old threads, couple of nipples, 4 hole flange set. Miller time.

Big Ed

Hacksaw

I use to get stuck with hacksaw behind the boiler.Sometimes with just the blade.My uncle had one of the first model.It was all metal model with no plastic.Kept asking my Dad to pick up one.He said "Why I have you". Said the same thing when I found out we own a electric vise....He also claimed it was too heavy.....I should have brought him up on unfair child labor law..

I remember when I first bought a sawzall for my self.The old guys use to make fun of me ....called me Mr Sawzall .They had a point I used that thing on everything even on a furnace...

soot_seeker_2

Iron Fittings

Just watch the codes. Some old ones specify cast on steam jobs.

Ed

Jerry_15

Sawzall, great I've worn out a few. a hand bandsaw, now we're talkin. Two guys with sledgehammers, one for back-up on the fitting, I'm out of there fast, and home early. I'll come back and visit you the next day. Some things ain't been improved on. I hate seeing malleable fittings on a demo, but I put them in because I have no choice.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I prefer cast on steam but as posted above not as readly available. Nothing wrong with using malleable code wise.

Ed

Jeff Elston

breakin

Yo Jerry sonds like you have broken a few fittings whats your method I'd love to know

ScottMP

Hey Jeff

I broke out a few fittings in my day. My method is to look for the seam where the fitting was cast. Hit it right on the seam and on the band where the threads are, not in the middle. You really don't need to break the fitting apart just crack it. You will see a little crack in the fitting and it will un-thread. Once the tension on the fitting is broken then it will come right off.

As Jerry said, sometimes you need another hammer behind the fitting to act as a anvil. Stops the fitting from moving and the pipe from moving and causing other damage.

Scott

PS: MY first saw-zall that was givin to me was an old metal one with the blue lightning bolt on the side. No grounding plug or rubber shield. Every once in awhile
you'd get a little tingle, and if you where standing on a wet floor ........... HEY !!!

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thfurnitureguy_4

How can you tell the difference?

Ok I'm the wood guy... Is there a visable diference between the 2 types of fittings?

soot_seeker_2

The casting around the tappings are larger on the cast pipe; they look more "beefy".

Beautiful pipes are they.

Long Beach Ed

Jerry_15

Scot got it to a tee, a couple of light sledgehammers with a long handle especially on the back up side, really nice to have a helper for that, if you start a good crack and happen to have a cold chisel handy, a few light taps up from the end of the crack, in-line with the pipe and it falls apart. WEAR FULL EYE PROTECTION, or better yet a face shield, it shatters like glass and will draw blood!! One thing to watch out for, occasionally someone will slip in a high pressure steam fitting, which LOOK VERY SIMILAR BUT DO NOT BREAK. It sounds different when you hit it but the real sign is when it starts to dent. Cast don' dent. Bandsaw time. Good luck

Tony Conner_2

How To Tell

Here's a page I scanned out of IPT's "Pipe Trades Handbook".

Note that Class 300 malleable fittings have also have wide bands, but there's "300" cast right into the fittings. The only 150 fittings that I know of that actually say "150" are the unions.

J.C.A._3

I've played \"backup\"....

To a cast smashing party more than once. The 3rd time I did, I got hit with the breakaway, on the 1st shot of the sledge. Talk about a short learning curve...I learned to read cast iron like a carpenter reads wood real fast. Luckily, I still have all my hair, and the scar from that experience is well hidden. Chris

[Deleted User]

I almost put out a guys eye once...

He was backing up a frozen flange, I hit it, and it went ballistic, bounced off the floor, richocheted off the wall and hit him in the eye. Dropped him to his knees.

Now, I require the guys to use full body armour if they're going to "pop" any cast iron.

Funny thing, one time I showed one of the kids how to pop a cast iron fitting. A few months later, I showed up on a job site he was working, and he was banging on a fitting, trying to get it to shatter, and the fitting was seriously deformed. It wasn't the right type for popping... Live and learn. Proceed with caution.

ME

Jerry_15

High pressure steam fittings don't break, some notes on that above.

Jerry_15

Did they have those marks 60 years ago? If it dents, it won't break.

[Deleted User]

I should have been more clear...

he was pounding on a malleable iron el...

ME

Reed

Don't do much steam

anymore (not much in my area that I live now that I have come across) but do alot of hot water systems. Working in NYC in my early plunbing and heating carreer we allways used steam fittings on steam and hot water systems. Where I am now the availabilty of steam fittings is scarce so of course I use black mal fittings. Steam fittings not only look better but seem to have, in my expierience. less chance of a leak. Its great to see, from reading all of the above replies that, that people still would like to use steam fittings but have the same problems. Cost & availabilty. PS Haven't smashed a steam fitting (and agree with the technique mentioned above. Scott, Jerry) and believe it or not I miss it. Saw-zall and hand bandsaw, THE BEST.

Unknown

Put me in

with the malleable group . Anything over 2 inch and I'd be hard pressed to find everything I need for a steamer . And nothing looks worse than mixing and matching cast and malleable close together .

jrc2905

Sledgehammers? I use a four inch grinder with a metal cutting wheel. Cut down both sides of the fitting and pop it off with a small hammer and cold chisel. No sweating involved and the pipe threads are always reusable. The only time I use a pipe wrench now is for putting pipe together

Jerry_15

That'll work, great, and I do it, but as Scott would probably agree, 4" high speed grinders were not invented yet when I first started. It's great to have options, and know the nature of the beast. Sometimes the old ways are good to know. I can change out a steam rad valve, spud and all, in 5/10 minutes max. No Sawzall. I flat rate at 150 per valve, if there's a bunch. Sometimes if I'm replacing the boiler I drop to $100, for a bunch. Folks tell me that the last time they had it done the guy was there for 3 Hours, and cussed the whole time. Go figgure.

ScottMP

I don't know

A speed grinder to cut off the fittings ?? And you don't damage the threads ?? Maybe if its steam but with water or gas ...... I would'nt do it.

By the way Jerry, how do you know when I started

Scott

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Jerry_15

I didm't say it would be my first choice, I just said it would work. The last time I did a tear out on a big sectional I charged a 500 consultation to show their army how to do it without bloodshed. Brad, you sent me a picture, our hair looked about the same shade. It seems I'm aggravating everybody these days. Better get back to work.

Al Corelli

Code

Don't try to put malleble fittings past a NYC inspector.

According to them, it is code to use steam fittings.

I have no trouble getting steam fittings. Even eccentric couplings.

Unknown

Is it a true code in NYC ?

If it is , can anyone explain why malleable can't be used on steam in the Big City ? I've seen firsthand what can happen when steam and water meet in a 4 inch main pipe , and trust me , I'd rather have malleable over my head when that happens ..........

jrc2905

With the proper “thin” cutting wheel you get good control so you do minimal damage to the threads. You are making the fitting weak to crack it with minimal effort and the threads on the new piece going on will overlap any threads that have been nicked. Most of the time there is no damage to the threads. Dope and tape it never had a leak yet. This week I cut off an air scoop, black iron fitting and a circulator flange, standing on the top of a ladder, not gonna swing a sledge from that vantage point. On old steam pipes worn thin, a wrench would egg the pipe and make it unusable, this is the only way to save the thread, and hey it works for me.