Water movement noise in baseboards

Paul Pollets

More glycerin in the formula...Mark E could probably tell you 10 reasons but I only know 1. It does work.

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Wayco Wayne_2

I have

2 customers complaining of a noise in their baseboards of water movement. One I've already bled the air out and it has an air seperator. I got a call saying it's still making noise. The other I haven't been to yet. What do I look for. Iremember Mark E putting dishwashing detergent in a system to help get air out. Is this a viable possible solution? WW

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Brad White_48

Soap, air, water

Hey Wayne-

Air is a stubborn bugger... But say you get it out as best you can, what is left is velocity. Velocity noise is a distinct hum (to my hears). Sounds like a train some distance down the tracks. Air noise still makes variations, gurgles, surges and so on. Depending on the type of noise, your problems and solutions will be different. Maybe too much pump?

In a second thread on dish detergent, one correspondent thought of using a plastic syringe (I suppose you could get from a place that sells epoxy; mine are from West Marine) and inject it into a vent tapping. I thought that was neater than my Neptune filter/shot feeder...

JimL

Are the pumps on the supply side pumping away from the x-pansion tank? or on the return side?

jim lockard

Maybe

Check the pressure. Do you have isolation and purge valves on the system Wayne? that will help alot to get the air out. What about a common return for two supplies that could be bouncing air around in the system. Can you valve off the X-Tank and raise the pressure up around 25 or better and purge the air out. Best Wishes J.Lockard

Ray Landry_2

Have you seen the air seperator work? what kind is it? I've seen spirovent that have had steel nipples made in too far and didnt allow the screen to turn. Also I've seen peices of tephlon tape clog the screen

Wayco Wayne_2

One system, I havent seen yet

The other I intalled the boiler in December and the lady is driving a little crazy. She has sharp senses and is a little high strung. She first complained about the crinkling and expansion sounds made when she turns up the heat. Of course the old boiler didnt make those sounds, according to her. To try and get rid of those sounds I changed the circ to constant circulation. This helped but then she started hearing the water movement sounds. I am pumping away and have purge valves. The system is an old diverter tee system, with keyed air bleeds on every baseboard run. No air is coming out of the air bleeds. What brand of soap should I use? I'm grasping here. WW

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Brad White_49

The crinkling sounds might be

her tin-foil hat

I think ME said any dish detergent, Joy, Palmolive. One ounce to 50 gallons I think was the ration (how scientific need that be?)

Are any of the diverter tees capped/plugged as in, "have radiators been removed"? Thinking here is that the cumulative nature of diverter tee pressure drops compounds when there is no bypass path around them. Water being incompressible, any noise generated at any pinch point can travel some distance.

I assume the circulator is appropriate to the load. Might it be a Grunfoss 15-58 for example and a lower speed possible?

Just some random thoughts-

Brad

Paul Pollets

Dawn!!

The recommended detergent is Dawn, and add 1 oz to the system, dissolved in 1/2gal warm or hot water...inject by force pump (Silver King) through a boiler drain. By using the force pump, the system will not have to be drained down introducing fresh water and more air. If not pumping away or with no air scoop properly installed, this probably won't work. The pump can also be oversized, causing velocity noise.

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Brad White_49

Why Dawn?

Just curious, Paul.

Brad White_49

Thanks, Paul. (NM)

Wayco Wayne_2

Thanks for the ammo

guys. I'm going in to get that noise. BTW as far as the size of the circ...my delta T is 19 degrees. Since most designs aim for 20 I think that's pretty close. Was thinking of putting a 3 speed Superbrute on so I could experiment with the different speeds, but how would the lower speeds affect the diverter tees? WW

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Brad White_9

Super Brute

Wayne-
I posted this anew to keep from "going vertical", but is a response to your posting pasted below:


Your 19 degrees delta is about as good as it gets. Sounds appropriate.

If you change the speed of the circulator your flow rate will drop proportional to the speed more or less. The funny thing that happens is that as you drop flow your pressure drop decreases as an approximate square root function. Basically a balance point 'just happens'.

On my house (reverse-return, 7.5 GPM split into (2) 1" mains and a lot of 3/4" and 1/2" runouts) has a 15-58 Super Brute with IFC and it works as follows:

Speed 3: 7.5 GPM

Speed 2: 6.5 GPM

Speed 1: 5.4 GPM

That is just a snapshot of what one system effect happens to be. The data is on the secondary side and flows measured with B&G visual flow meters.

All things being equal though, the diverter tees will each have the same proportion of flow as they have now. Because the pressure drops decrease equally throughout, the incentive to take the service road is the same.

Hope this helps-

Brad



Date: March 27, 2006 07:05 AM
Author: Wayco Wayne
Subject: Thanks for the ammo

guys. I'm going in to get that noise. BTW as far as the size of the circ...my delta T is 19 degrees. Since most designs aim for 20 I think that's pretty close. Was thinking of putting a 3 speed Superbrute on so I could experiment with the different speeds, but how would the lower speeds affect the diverter tees? WW

Kal Row

2 things...

do you have enough static pressure in the system - subtract the lowest point from the highest point in the system and divide by 2.33 and add 5, this is what the boiler's pressure gauge should read when the water is 60F (will be 5-7 higher when hot) also your expansion tank should be set to the same air pressure, out of the system and devoid of water - that’s why i never install an exp tank without an isolation valve - there is no other way to check it, they come set to 12psi, but they loose a pound a year through the diaphragm, 12psi is usually good for a two level home, as the upstairs baseboard to the bottom of the boiler is about 18ft (7ft for basement, 1ft for floor, 9 ft first level, then 1 more ft, then 2” to baseboard, or approximate 7lb static pressure weight of the water column, +5 to keep at least 5psi at the highest point in the system which is lowest static pressure point, for a 12psi total, which is the default that most tanks and water feeders come with – you need to set it for your height, and if you are pumping to, the +5 is not enough, you need +10, (or 17 cold, which will be 20-23 hot) so make sure you have a good 30psi relief valve on the boiler

if your superbrut is of the “fc” variant - the outlet springcheck chatters, especially if you ARE pumping away, it's why taco puts it on the inlet, cause you need at least 6 (preferably 12) smooth and fitting free pipe diameters preceding an outlet springcheck, or it’s noise will travel throughout system, taco figured, that at standard hydronic temps, and pressures, they did not have to worry about the check, causing enough of a pressure drop to create cavitation,
as for serviceability, it’s usually easier to pull the 4 cap-screws on the motor and pull out the cartridge to get at the spring check, than to take the outlet flange apart, only to discover, that the entire boiler room’s piping weight was on that flange (it happens!!!)

Weezbo

something to be said for globe valves:)