ignorance is bliss

ed wallace

I have had the priviledge of meeting Connie when he was 1st starting his house project I found him very knowledgable and willing to listen to advise from this mere heating tech I am happy to have met him and always learn from his post for a mere homeowner hes a heck of a guy

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Dan_29

ignorance is bliss

I was a happy homeowner who had set about to do a preemptive gas steam boiler cut dump and replace job due to the local utility calling my current boiler "unworkable". Then it happend. I did a google search and found heatinghelp.com and this forum and life has been difficult ever since.

I ordered Dan H.'s big three book pack, read them and have been showing plumber/heating guys the door ever since. If only I had not read these books and followed the precedings of this forum, my new boiler would have been installed by the lowest bidder and all would be well on the domestic front. But no, I had to be the educated consumer.

The job is relatively simple. Remove my old unworkable Peerless and replace it with a weil mclain eg55 or burnham in7 gas steam boiler. Also repitch a wrongly sagged branch main pipe and run a hot water loop to two kickplate heaters.

I have interviewed six contractors. One was technically proficient but gave a price set somewhere in the ionosphere. The second gave a price somewhere in the stratosphere. I showed numbers 3 and 4 the door. Number 5 I am still thinking about. I want number six to do the job, but he is missing in action(mia). MY POINT IS THAT THINGS WRITTEN ABOUT IN DAN H,s BOOKS REALLY DO HAPPEN.

Contractor number three did not measure my EDR and tried to sell me a boiler based on number of sections (6). The boiler was too small based on sq ft of edr and the contractor would not here of it and I had to show him the door.

Contractor number four said he only works in copper (near boiler) and that black pipe was time comsuming, expensive and unneccessary. It would turn a day and half job into a 3 day job and be hugely expensive. He is not going to be hired.

Contractor number five, while techincally proficient(works in black pipe), did suggest increasing the psi between 3 to 10 psi and foregoing a dripline and line vent in one of my problem third floor branch mains. I am wary of this contractor.

Contractor number six is a technically proficient and a dedicated follower of Dan H. but missing in action when it comes to getting me the proposal/contract and receiving a deposit. This makes "the boss" (she who must be obeyed) anxious about whether this pro will show up after the job is done, if there is a problem.

I am going to give him one last try.

Dan

PS: As a customer, I do not have two horns and a pitchfork. Show me you know your stuff, sign a contract get a deposit, do the job and get paid. It can't be any simpler than that.

gerry gill

boggles the mind

doesn't it...have you tried the ''find a pro'' section of this site? maybe the stratosphere guys are expensive cause they're good..

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[Deleted User]

Good point Gerry...

I'm running about 4 to 6 weeks out on design / bid work right now, and people are unwilling to wait.

Wish I had about three clones...

Mr. Homeowner, how did YOU arrive at what YOU consider the "right" price whereby the first two guys were out of this world???

I get told my price is twice as high as my competiton all the time, but I still get the jobs. It because when we're done, we're done. Fini, poof, no more. Unless you get in trouble, then VIOLA were there again like magic.

And all you have to do is bask in comfort.

My definition of comfort is not being aware of your surroundings. You arenot hot. You're not cold, and you can't "hear" the heating system.

THAT is the definition of comfort. If you want comfort, you'll have to pay more.

If you just want heat, along with thinking about the temperature, and listening to your heating system, then go for what you believe to be "the right price".

Kudos to you for at least having the moxie to learn about your system. You've stumbled across a hidden American treasure. The Wall.

ME

Brad White_48

Could you please post a photo

of your door?

I am one of the few who have not seen it and don't want to miss out.




Seriously- Good for you for taking the time and protecting yourself. Doing it right the first time is always less expensive and more comfortable.

Brad

DanHolohan

Where

do you live?

Constantin

Hear Hear!

As a fellow homeowner afflicted by the same disease, I can assure you that even stratospheric pricing is no guarantee for a A1 install. As much as I like my contractor, I find it terribly frustrating to uncover negligence, followed by yet another callback. Let me rant for a bit to make me feel better...

• I find it frustrating to be told what I want (such as shut-offs placed around circulators being a bad thing) if I'm willing to pay for them to do the work. Being lectured on the clam-juice effect after a circ removal causes the boiler room to be covered in water gets old.
  
• Just yesterday I discovered that the sensor for the solar system differential controller was not installed in the right location, making it 20°F warmer than it ought to be (and hence not taking advantage as much as possible of the sunshine). Why do I have to discover this? How hard is it to read a manual before installing a unfamiliar unit?
  
• Why does a contractor not check combustion as a matter of course? Why does a 9% CO₂ reading not trigger an automatic tune-up considering the unit is supposed to be running at 12.1-12.7% CO₂? Never mind the complete absence of electronic combustion analyzers.
  
• Why do I have to figure out that installing a LWCO vertically is just not the way to go? Never mind getting the LWCO installed in the first place, which required serious teeth-pulling. And yes, I was willing to pay for it! No contract, no haggling, just send me the bill. And yet, it couldn't be done without serious arm twisting.
  
• How many callbacks should a customer tolerate to get a solar system going? How many times should I have to climb on the roof to see what the array is doing because it's not pumping hot water on a hot, sunny day?
  
• Why is it that I have to police equipment selection because I don't want 7 tons of cooling capacity installed when 5 would do it? We all know about the evils of oversizing AC equipment and the subsequent loss of comfort in the home. So why do this?
  
• Why does my contractors heat gain/loss calculation assume that every window is 12ft², when it's not?
  
• How about the air-lock episode, where every circ in the house started to sound like a giant-size bathtub duckie because they'd spool up and then lock? Once the air was out of the system and the pressure was up to the point that the air would not come out of solution at the top of the house, we had silence... but not until Grundfos was here (thank you!) to help them figure it out.

OK, enough of my ranting. Don't get me wrong, I like my contractor and his employees. But I have learned that I have to double and triple-check everything they do to ensure that it meets the manufacturers specs/works/etc. It shouldn't be that way, but it is what it is. And, in this case, money had nothing to do with all the issues we encountered.

lchmb

You know

I would have loved to have done your system. I love a customer that want's it perfect!! There should be more customer's like you Constantin. And no I'm not being a wise guy, I just love a challange to do the best job possible...

Bob R

Where does the responsibility line get drawn? I too like an educated consumer and I believe value is determined by the consumer. At what point though does the consumer let the contractor do the job? If you have a customer who has all of the answers and wants something done a certain way and is willing to pay the price (there's the catch), and then there is still some sort of problem guess who will be at fault? The Contractor.
"I put it in just as you've requested it Mr. Customer, I now have to charge you more to correct it."
That will be like a turd in the punch bowl!

Plumbob

> Unless you get in trouble, then VIOLA were there

> again like magic.


Wow, a contractor who plays a musical instrument during a no-heat call!

Ragu

Dan...

I congratulate you for taking the time and making the effort to know what is involved in your heating system; you are soon to enjoy "Educated Bliss".

When you can, please post where you are located (as per Dan Holohans query) and also look in "Find A Pro".

You have done the work to find this site which is the premier location for state of the art heating technology, along with extremely competent and very honest advice.

A replacement boiler in an existing heating system presents a fair share of challenges for both the homeowner and the contractor. More often than not, the replacement of the heating appliance itself will not neccessarily produce a marked improvement in either/or fuel efficiency or creature comfort, although that may occur.

In my experience, the more competent heating contractors will tend to look at your entire heating sysem as whole, and will tend to recommend that consideration be given to changes in zoning, piping, radiation, insulation,controls etc. with a possible (and probable) resultant increase in initial upfront overall installation costs.

Please be willing to look at the long term life cycle cost paybacks of their recommendations, as you will probably be living with this heating system for a long, long time.

I hope that you hear the honesty in this and I wish you lots of good luck.

Dan_29

I live in the West suburbs of Boston. Good news--I was able to re-establish contact with one of the pros listed on this page. He knows his steam. He was not the high bid or low bid, but a fair bid. We signed a contract (today) and the work is scheduled. Thanks for your help.

Dan_29

I cannot send a picture of my door as it has my address all over it. However, I can show you the offending (current) boiler which one of the contractors did not see anything wrong with.


Dan

Dan_29

The stratosphere guy is not that great. Just the local utility corporate types which jack their prices every time a wall street conglomerate buys them out.
The ionosphere contractor is a real pro and famous. The proposal is a work of art and his staff are lengendary techs with good followup. I just did not want to pay the 30-40% more to accept his bid because I am educated enough to hire his competitor (who is trying harder) to get where the ionosphere guy is now. Plus, I am a frugal (a.k.a.) cheap guy.

Dan

Dan_29

After reading your post, I realized that I am not worthy to shine your shoes. You have taken educated consumerism and contractor followup to a new level.

Seriously,I realize that being a contractor working under time, money and quality pressures can be stressful and some mistakes will be made. There is a fine line between being a customer know-it-all and being an educated consumer who is diplomatic enough not to alienate his contractor while getting the right job done.

Dan

Erich_2

Constantin

Spends much too much time on this website.

DanHolohan

Your opinion, Sakka,

to which I disagree. I learn from him.

Brad White_49

Fair enough...

I see what you mean. The Hartford Loop, while technically correct is more like a "Holyoke Loop" (inside joke re: a city to the north of Hartford)..

Stick to your guns.

Brad

Brian (Tankless)

Hear, Hear

One more vote for the "mere homeowner"

Swampster

Brad White_49

Constantin

is a valuable contributor offering the best mix of savvy homeowner and a surprisingly knowlegeable installer and to a great extent, engineer. I have learned from him.
Not to mention, getting all done that he has on all facets of his current project, heck, I admire the guy. Not that he needs defending; his work and words stand on their own.

That is my opinion.

Brad

Weezbo

Not bad from a mere sailor /homeowner*~/:)

Ron Schroeder

I hope to be half as

informed as Constantin when I grow up!!

Constantin

Not sure what that means...

... not to be worthy of shining someones shoes. You're here on the Wall, now in the midst of a very talented bunch of people. We all learn from each other every day, and it is that thirst for knowledge, not the individual extent thereof at a given point in time per se, that makes the difference. Heck, one former mere homeowner is now trying to enter the home heating business!

As for the comment re: being a know-it-all consumer: I take pride in my work, I expect it to be able to stand scrutiny from professionals, and almost always whenever it was challenged, it has. I expect the people who work on the systems under my purview to do the same. As such, not following the instructions of the manufacturer re: installation has to have good reasons.

Plus, sending someone out for the third time to refill glycol because the system malfunctioned again will eat away at profitability with a grim certainty. ... and not just because Tyfocor is very expensive... but because scheduling around unexpected service calls under warranty carries a very high opportunity cost. I can't think of a quicker way to end a business than to do shoddy work, it will simply eat you up over time.

As one member on OTT puts it in his tagline (and I'm paraphrasing): "It takes longer to explain why you did it wrong than to do it right in the first place".

Rodney Summers

Dan

What a beauty.
I especially love those DWV copper fittings and the near boiler piping too.
It sounds like you are heading in the right direction. Please post an "after pic" sometime.

Good Luck

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Steamhead (in transit)

Very funny

he meant "VOILA!".

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Steamhead (in transit)

Great!

I hope he repipes each branch from that vertical stack into a proper horizontal header.

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Steamhead (in transit)

I'll second that

no, wait... that would be "I'll 'sixth' that"!

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Brian (Tankless)

Look further down Constantin.

Isn't it nice to know you're nice to know?

I think that came from a soap commercial years ago, but it still works.

We need more "mere Homemoaners" :0)

Swampster.

jackchips_2

A seventh

from here.

Jack

Dan_29

The steamhead and the plugged Hartford Loop mainfold loop will soon be history, according to the pro. He is going to pipe it right. I will post before and after pictures when it is done.

Dan

Dan_29

My previoius post was an attempt at humor. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I believe it is possible to work, learn and have some fun at the same time.

Dan

Dan_29

"Holyoke Loop" has a nice ring to it. As a former resident of Enfield, Connecticut (halfway between Hartford and Holyoke), I understand the analogy.

Dan