Alternate heat source (SE)

S Ebels

The economics of burning wood don't pencil out until the price per unit for traditional fuels gets up toward $3.00+ I have seen normally logical people absolutely flip out over a proposal of $6,000 to install a condensing boiler. Then they will in the next sentence, ask me for a price on "one of them wood boilers". Nearly always the wood boiler install will be over twice as much as the fuel fired boiler quote. When you factor in the cost of gathering/procuring/harvesting or whatever fancy name you want to put on cutting wood. The payback is probably past the service life of most of these units being installed to "save money".

If someone is serious about burning wood, pellets or other bio based stuff, they would do well to purchase equipment that will last a long time. Probably around 10-12 year minimum. This is because unless fuel goes to $3.50 a gallon +, their real world payback is a long ways down the road.

But people keep buying them. I have heard of several manufacturers that are already backordered into July&August.

What are wood pellets going for in your neck of the woods? My brothers in the hardware store are buying semi loads and selling pellets for $150-170 per ton this time of year. The last load was $169. December and January brought $220/T.

S Ebels

These look exceedingly cool

And they look very efficient. Anyone know if they are imported to the USA.

Looks like the Euro's are out in front again.

http://www.froeling.com/en/products/hgpf/p2/index.htm

hr

Team Radiant Engineering

has been looking at bringing in a top line pellet boiler. It may not be the same brand. Ring up Andrew and get you fat checkbook out. The real nice ones will cost!

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S Ebels

I don't doubt that HR

It seems that's always the case no matter what you buy. What I've been pondering lately is what does it really and truly cost if you don't but it. What are all the other costs associated with not using the best technology available. Costs that we don't see include excessive air pollution, poor and inefficient use of fuel (who cares if it grows on trees, damage to the climate. These are all costs that need to be looked at because at some point in time, we are all going to wind up paying for the "cheaper" product one way or another.

When I hear that one typical outdoor wood "boiler" produces as much harm to the environment as one thousand (yes 1,000) oil furnaces I really begin to wonder where the economy is. (New York state EPA study) We will all pay the price for this type of product down the road.

I don't mean to sound like a tree hugger but, my grandkids are going to grow up in this world and try to raise kids of their own some day. What will that world be like if the only criteria for any purchase becomes "It's the least expensive". On a global scale, think about the massive amount of air pollution emmitted in China. Now ponder whether they would be creating as much pollution if the entire supply chain from manufacturer to final consumer didn't buy based solely on price, and was willing to pay extra for clean technology and decent conditions for humans to work in. I guess the main point I'm trying to make is (not for your benefit because you already understand this HR) basically this. A cheap product nearly always carries hidden costs that have a multitude of unintended consequences.

hr

I agree with that

and I also try to sell my customer the best I can find, and usually something I have tried myself first .

I've been watching pellets over the past few years, they seem to float with the LP prices around here. Even though the raw material is very plentiful in this hardwood mecca of Missouri.

Perhaps with a good burner and shaker, etc pellet fired may be the best solid burner.

However 10 grand for the boiler, possibly a buffer, related piping and controls to tie into a back up boiler... Gosh it's hard to see that as a better way to go, investment wise??


Even if, or when, LP goes to 2 bucks a gallon, 15 grand would buy me 7500 gallons or about 15 years worth at my current consumption with a $2500 Mod-Con boiler.

So if the pellets float with the LP prices, keeping in mind they will never burn mid 90% efficiencies, and there still is the operator error snafu.

I'd still prescreen my customers that want alternative boilers. I can't see it becoming very mainstream regardless of how much they cost or how user friendly they become.

Tough call. I'd rather see ANY solid fuel customer with the best possible technology. Not really a tin drum suspended over a campfire

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Constantin

... me too!

Even if automated, etc. any solid fuel combustion appliance will be a lot more work for the consumer than a gas or oil boiler. Both gas and oil offer great convenience and a very high energy density, easy transportation, etc., which are going to make pellet boilers and the like quite unuseful in urban areas where people no longer want to set aside coal or pellet bunkers.

Rural areas with more land, cheap storage, etc. are a different animal though. The landscaping companies here produce a lot of "compost" turning dead/dying/unwanted trees into woodchips via rather powerful shredders. There is no reason not to install a similar shredder at home and with the help of a tractor to turn deadwood into easily handled firewood.

On the other hand, I do hope that more areas will be given the opportunity to turn unwanted recycled newsprint into pellets for baseline power plants. Munich has one right in downtown and it reduces the distances the dump trucks have to travel tremendously.

hr

I've yet to find a place

where cut, dried, split cordwood grows wild!

I think if homeowners add the cost of gasoline or diesel to accomplish those tasks to the 25- 40% efficient boiler....

A gallon of gas and related two stroke and bar oil doesn't cut a lot of solid fuel

I still enjoy the discipline however. And the great exercise the procedure provides.

Post consumer waste makes it look a little better. Waste paper and other shredded products.

We need to set up a pellet plant down New Orleans way. Millions of tons of fuel (free for the taking) going to the landfills down there. With our tax dollars dragging along with it

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Xc8p2dC_2

Studies

Was there ever any research done on piping water thru mulch piles and taking advantage of the heat from the decomposition

I have a landscape company behind my home and they have mulch piles [50+ feet high] that ocassionaly spontaniously [sp] combust