Replace Burnham p-204-w installed in 1982?

Unknown

Above and beyond changing the boiler, I would ocncentrate on the reasons why the boiler is popping and gurgling. Usually this is due to excessive makeup water with possible higher than normal mineral content. There could be any numbr of reasons for the excessive makeup water addition. There could be valve stems, air vents or pump flanges leaking. I see no provision for getting rid of air in the system other than the float vent that is stuck up on top of the relief valve nipple along with the expansion tank. Uncorrected, the same thing will happen to a replacement boiler. I see evidence of flue gas condensation occuring in the flue pipe connected to the top of the draft hood. You had stated that you had radiators connected to the system. Are these the tube style cast iron radiators and if they are I see no provision to allow the boiler to deal with the possible cool return water that they will bring back.

Has antifreeze ever been installed in this system? If so, has the antifreeze been maintained over the years. There are any number of things that can cause the conditions you have. As far as the accuracy of either the high limit control or the boiler gauge, I would advise having someone check this. I would generally trust the limit control above the temperature gauge, but it is best to have the temperature checked anyway. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

Jim_52

Replace Burnham p-204-w installed in 1982?

This Burnham 204 I have has been popping and banging since I bought this house 3 years ago. I was told it wasn't a problem, that it was sediment (the noise isn't from air in the pipes). But now it's sqealing in an oscillating manner while it's heating up, and progressively getting worse over the last two weeks. Like something is building up then releasing. Is this cause for concern? Also, the boiler temp gauge has always been 30 degrees lower than the Honeywell high limit switch is set to. I have it at 180 and the gauge is at 150 when the it's done heating up. It's been between zero and -4 degrees for the last few days, and with the thermostat set to 72 all night, the house will not get up past 69-70. So I have questions. It's old and should be replaced with something more efficient, but by what, and by something that can keep up when it's this cold. The house is about 1200 sq feet, one level ranch, built in '82. Thanks!

Robert_15

i had the same issue it seems most likly the circular. im sure if you change that out yuur house will get warm

Jim_52

The radiators are nice and hot all thru the house. The pump works good - it's always on cuz I have an open loop in the garage for the overhead heater. I just question whether the water temp is high enough. I'm afraid to turn it up past 180.

Robert_15

when you look in the manual it stats that if i am not mistaking that it sould not go higher then 220f

Robert_15

i would check the manual it is posible that it cools down alot after that loop in your garage.is that at the end of the loop?

Jim_52

It's inline with the rest of the single zone, and if the blower is on, yes it does cool faster, but it isn't always on - I keep it at about 50 degrees. See attached pix in first post.

Jim_52

Thanks Glenn

I do have a lot of minerals in my well water. The system was flushed about 18 months ago, and shortly after that I replaced the way the water was filtered. But the popping never did go away. It's hard to say how well the prior owner maintained the system - could be half full of sediment at the bottom of the chambers (?) No Antifreeze put in during last flush - haven't needed it -didn't know you could do that. I have baseboards (Slantfin). There is a second relief valve at the highest point - the top of the heater that hangs from the garage ceiling. They both work good at letting the air out, I check them periodically. I have no air in the system - I know what that sounds like. If there is any, I can hear it go by and thru the circ pump, and would also be able to hear it in the baseboards as well. Within the last hour, a local reputable plumbing and heating place told me that the boiler has an internal limit control, and that the one on the outside is secondary. They said I should go ahead and trust the boiler temp, and turn the temp up 20 or 30 degrees to make the needle show 180. I warned them about my concerns and they said if there's an overheating problem, the first limit would turn off the boiler. If not, the second one would do it. If not that, then the relief valve would open. Last winter I kept it set between 190 to 200 so that the temp was close to 180 with no problems. And I would do the same now except for the "new" squealing sound that has developed. I'm used to the popping and banging, but if I turn it up too much, it gets more violent - to the point that it rattles the whole unit and the pipes throughout the house. Another note, the systems is wired hot - always on - always heating the water, whether the zone is open or not. The circ pump is always on too, because of the open loop in the garage. Very inefficient. I have to turn the breaker off in the summer to save on gas. Can I make this system only come on during demand? Thanks!

Unknown

I don't think so!

The newer Series 2 boilers have the high limit in a well inside the boiler vestibule and there is a junction box inside the vestibule with a transformer relay mounted on it. Your boiler was built before that change, therefore there is no provision for a well inside the vestibule. The control you have on there is probably the only one and is not what we would have normally configured the boiler with as a standard build. The original control would have been an L8148 24v control with an internal relay to control both the burner through its own built-in limit and the circulator whenever any of the zone valves which sould have been wired to it pulled in. This is referred to as Intermittent operation.

Yours has been wired hot as you indicated which would answer the question as to why you have baked out the minerals. Simple flushing will not get rid of the mineral deposits. There are some treatments out there that are successful in dealing with the mineral buildup depending on how much you have and how long it has been in there. I'll let the other "Wallies" indicate what their success has been with these chemicals. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

Jim_52

L8148

Thanks again. Believe it or not, I have all of the original paperwork from the factory for the installation of this boiler, including the part numbers used - it was originally the L8148 that was installed. But I still have a couple questions, hope you don't mind. Are you saying that with the right part (L8148 ), I could make this thing intermittant again? And, can I turn up the temp 5 or 10 degrees without damaging the boiler? Finally, The signs of condensation on the flue - it was there when I bought the place and have never noticed any mositure or dripping anywhere so far. Should I take all that apart this summer and check / clean it out? When I first moved in there were pieces of dryer lint hanging from the bottom of the flue, but I've kept it clean all around there since.

hr

My thoughts

If the boiler does have a build up from hard water, traditional boiler cleaners will not help. It probably needs a mild acid flush. I use Hercules Sizzle. It has instructions on the label how to mix. It is safe to use in potable water heaters and will not harm the boiler if instructions are followed.

I treated, and solved this very problem on a 204 last winter. About 8 years old connected to a leaky in slab radiant.

With fin tube baseboard cold return issues should not appear. Sounds like it heats the home just fine when everything works

I doubt that boiler is "worn out" Find a contractor with the right equipment and knowledge to acid clean and completely flush. I'll bet the noise goes away.

Efficiency should go up a few notches also. A scale built up really hampers heat exchange inside the sections. Hense the "boiling" noise you hear.

hot rod

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Jim_52

Thanks, I'll see if I can find anyone to do that. It was mfg'd in 1979 I believe, and has had it's 20 year life, so most people around here (Anchorage Alaska) will probably just want to sell me a new one. Which brings me to another point - gas prices. I know my boiler is wasting a lot of gas trying to keep up, but because of it's age and the newer technology out there, is it worth spending money to make this one keep plugging along rather inefficiently, or invest in something that uses less gas?

Jim_52

Makeup Water

Hey Glenn,

What does Makeup Water mean?

Unknown

Jim

Changing the control will make it operate in the Intermittent mode again, but the question is what to do about the percolating inside the boiler.Turning up the temperature is probably going to make the noise worsen. Any boiler should be cleaned and serviced on an annual basis. If you found dryer lint in the draft hood, then I would bet you it is in the burner tubes and flue passageways of the boiler also.

My advice would be to have a qualified individual come in and go through the boiler from top to bottom to make sure it is operating safely. They may suggest replacing the boiler based on what their findings are, but that advice should be based on their concern for your well being and that of your family. The things we have addressed thus far are mostly modifications that the previous owner either did himself or had done. There may also be other things that may have been done that could raise concern. Once again, for your own safety, please have someone take a look at this boiler.


Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

jeff_51

my opinion

around here, by the time you drained, boiled out the boiler, refilled and bled the system and rewired , you are half way at least to a new boiler (depending of course on your boiler choice.) I think I would call a couple of contractors and get quotes on the boiling out with changes on wiring, and a new boiler. Have them quote a standard 80-85% and a condensing boiler with modulating burner. That would get you enough info to make an educated decision. If it were me aind I could afford it, I would put in a new ultra high eff unit, especially where you are. I would think your payback would be pretty quik, unless you are in Junoe. (sorry, can't spell)

jeff_51

my opinion

around here, by the time you drained, boiled out the boiler, refilled and bled the system and rewired , you are half way at least to a new boiler (depending of course on your boiler choice.) I think I would call a couple of contractors and get quotes on the boiling out with changes on wiring, and a new boiler. Have them quote a standard 80-85% and a condensing boiler with modulating burner. That would get you enough info to make an educated decision. If it were me aind I could afford it, I would put in a new ultra high eff unit, especially where you are. I would think your payback would be pretty quik, unless you are in Junoe. (sorry, can't spell)

Unknown

Hot Rod

Thanks for the response on this one! I always hear about people attempting to clean out the mineral deposit build-up but I never hear whether it really worked or not. Good advice and thanks for the followup!

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.

bob young

go new

i agree with you Jeff & with a new unit coupled with the knowlege he has gained here with proper preventive maintenance the new one will last a ;lifetime. nothing like brand if you know how to take care of it.

Jim_52

Thank You Everyone

For all the advice. I will get a full inspection done, then ask to see if any of the shops are willing to do the boil out thing. Will get quotes for that if so, and quotes for a replacement, but I would like to know who makes the most efficient replacement? Anyone know what my current 204 is rated at, and is a "standard 80-85%" replacement considered better?

Jim_52

Glenn

I think I'm going to go ahead and replace this old 204 soon. Everyone I've talked to in town says the sounds are because of sediment, and there's only one place that cleans it out, with iffy success. I had someone out yesterday to give me three different quotes: 1) Burnham 204NS 96,000 btu single stage for $5512.00. 2) Burnham 204NS 96,000 btu single stage with SSU-45, outdoor reset and priority zoning board for $7838.00. 3) Munchkin 80 80,000 btu with SSU-45, outdoor reset and priority zoning board for $9350.00. I don't think I'll ever see a ROI with the Munchkin, and it looks like it would be the least amount of labor to do the 204NS only, a direct replacement. I think I need to make a decision pretty quick because the noises from the old one are getting worse almost daily. Can you tell me how to figure out how long it would take to see a ROI on the $3838.00 difference to put in a Munchkin? My last gas bill was 100.00 and the rate goes up 20% next month. My bill for the coldest month, usually February, will be close to $150.00 for a 1400 sq ft ranch house. Finally, I have one 5-15 micron whole house water filter. Is this good enough to prevent sediment problems in a new system?

rob_26

if you could wait it is better to do the job in the spring or summer you get a better price. i just had a Burnham p205 with outdoor reset installed in aug. it cost $3950 with a year defered intrest free. just a thought

Unknown

Two Different Entities

The 204NS boiler is basically a much newer version of the boiler you already have and is chimney vented. The Munchkin is a Direct Vent boiler that does not vent into a chimney and in reality needs to be installed in a system that has low temperature cababilities in order to condense and give you the claimed efficiencies. Both can operate well with an outdoor reset control. The 204NS will need to stay above 135°F in order not to condense in the heat exchanger (cast iron). The Munchkin will like to operate below the 135°F mark in order to properly condense and give you their claimed efficiencies.

There are some unknowns in determining your ROI. Most of this may be dependant upon your installed baseboard element. If your lineal footage of installed baseboard element is sized to operate on 180°F water to satisfy your heat loss on those design temperature days in January and February, the 204NS will still be giving you efficiencies in close proximity to the claimed 82.3%. The Munchkin, however, will by no means be giving you the claimed efficiencies while operating at 180°F. Granted you will still have a modulating flame working for you but you will not be condensing at those temperatures to any degree. Many installers find themselves increasing the amounts of element (in some case doubling) to allow the Condensing boilers to satisfy the heat loss with much lower temperatures. If I tried that in my house, my wife would have my head because all the furniture would not be close up to the wall anymore due to the extra lineal footages of baseboard.

I have a Burnham MPO oil-fired high efficiency boiler installed in my home along with an outdoor reset control. Due to the MPO's internal mixing, I'm able to operate this boiler with rather low supply and return temperatures and still keep the boiler from condensing. During the 20°F weather we have been having lately, I have been able to operate the boiler between 125°F and 145°F most of the time and satisfy the heat loss without condensing in the boiler. The running cycles of the pumps are longer during this weather but with much cooler water than 180°F. When the 204NS is used in conjunction with an outdoor reset control, the boiler will still be inputing 100% while firing but the firing cycles will be somewhat shorter on moderate days.

The payback with the Indirect Heater will also help in the second option. The perform remarkably well and the standby losses are only a fraction of gas-fired water heaters. The limited lifetime warranty also adds a lot of value to the Burnham product.

As far as the water filtration goes, there should be little to no water addition to a boiler and system provided there is no loss of water. Frequent water addition due to minute and sometimes undetectable leaks at air vents, valve packings and circulator gaskets is more than likely what contributed to your mineral build-up problem. Whatever choice you make, this problem will need to be addressed. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

U.S. Boiler Co., Inc.