Next step in troubleshooting steam heat problems

Mike Cascio

If the risers to the radiators on the second floor and the third floor are long, perhaps the risers should be vented seprately with the Frank Gerety technique. That would solve the venting problem for those radiaors and the vent on the radiator would be sized for just the radiator.

Michael J. Cascio

Pete_18

Thanks to everyone for your help.

I've now finished insulating the majority of the steam pipes in the basement that were left uninsulated. I used 1 inch thick insulation and the mains were 2 & 3 inch black iron with leads to the radiators that were 1 1/4 inch and 1 1/2 inch.

I still do not have heat on 2 radiators (one on the second floor) and one on the third floor.

I also have one radiator that regardless of the vent I use and even if the vent is open, will not heat (you do hear air coming out of the vent), but as soon as the vent is removed, you hear a rush of air come out and it will heat up immediately. What will happen by running a radiator without a vent attached? Does anyone have any suggestions as to what to do next with this particular radiator? (I have tried a Ventrite vent with max vent set and a Durst/el cheapo vent).

What would be the next step in troubleshooting the other radiators? I will try removing the vents on them as well to see if they heat up. What should I try after that?

Pete_18

Removing vents

Update:

If I remove the new vents from the 2 units that are not heating up, they both heat up quite quickly.

I am going to finish up the insulation in the basement, but does the fact that I need to remove the vents to actually get these units to heat up mean something? (These are new vents and on the third unit, two different vents don't cause it to heat up, one Ventirite and the other Durst/el cheapo).

In the basement, there are no vents on the main. I also turned off the two radiators in a room closest to the boiler in the hope that this would help more heat go to the other radiators. Could this have been a bad thing because perhaps these units were helping to vent the system and now they're not venting anymore?

We're burning a significant amount of oil. In the 7 days since the system has been on (6 prior to the pipes being insulated), approximately 68 gallons of oil were used (and this is without it being freezing outside). Of course the house not being insulated doesn't help.

Jim Franklin_2

Vent those mains!

If there really are no vents on the mains, your radiators are trying to vent everything. It's like blowing up a balloon with a cocktail straw. Are there risers at the ends of the mains that are plugged? Or were there never any vents?

jim

Pete_18

Thanks for your advice. I'm new to this system (this is the first week we've ever used it), but in my novice view of it, there were never any vents. I don't see any place where a vent would have ever gone, it's just a bunch of black iron piping that leads to the radiators (off the left and right) and then down and back to the boiler again.

So basically if we complete insulation and these radiators still will not get hot unless the vent is physically removed on them, next step would be to have someone vent the main or is there something else to try? for example, i'm using garbage vents, could Gorton vents or something better really make a tremendous difference?

Steamhead (in transit)

You need to vent the mains

since there were no main vents originally, you will have to have the pipes drilled and tapped to instal them.

Measure the length and diameter of each main and we can tell you what vents are needed.

Once this is done, all radiators should get steam at about the same time.

Jim Franklin_2

Looking for main vents

If you follow the piping as it returns to the boiler, it should make a 90 degree bend and go almost down to the ground right next to the boiler. The main vents should be a few inches before this 90 degree bend, at the top of a 12" or so riser. There's nothing there? Just straight main pipe and then the elbow? Can you post a picture?

You can stick a large vent on the radiators that aren't heating- a Gorton D radiator vent vents about the same amount of air as a Gorton #1 main vent. Compare that to the largest Ventrite in my table which does a mere 20% of the Gorton D. Which Ventrite do you have? This MAY help get you heat today while you plan on venting those mains (which will get you 90% of the way towards all rads getting hot simultaneously), but venting a radiator too fast can cause it to spew condensate. It's a balancing act.

Buy this -
http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-138
For $10 you get a nice table of venting rates for various vents.

jim

Pete_18

Pictures

Please accept my apology for the insulation job not yet fully complete.

Should I be insulting each elbow run up to the radiators where I can reach them? If so, should I also use 1 inch thickness on this as well or is 1/2 inch fine? I began adding some insulation after the main dropped 90 down to the floor, is this unnecessary?

Pete_18

Pictures

Please accept my apology for the insulation job not yet complete. Should I be insulating the pieces up to each radiator (off the main where I can get to it)? If so, is 1 inch thickness necessary on these or should 1/2 inch be fine?

What is the preferred method for insulating where pipes connect and the width changes and for 90/45 degree elbows? I bought a piece of fiberglass and a plastic elbow (90 degree) for about 4.50 each and I really felt like it was a waste of money for what I got. I haven't bought anything for the other sections yet.

I began to add some insulation after the main dropped 90 down to the ground, I assume this is unnecessary?

Pete_18

second picture

Pete_18

second picture (again) - first try posted the same picture twice

Jim Franklin_2

insulation

First - please reduce the picture size. 640 x 480 is plenty big enough. Maybe back up a bit to get more piping in the picture. Try and delete the post with the pics in it, it's almost unviewable.

Insulation - the more you do, the better. Realize that the basement will get colder the more you insulate. The stuff you have on there is fine though. For elbows and tees I'd just use some leftover fiberglass, but hopefully others will weigh in on that. Regarding the wet return, I have no idea. I'd guess it was not harmful, and somewhat beneficial, but remember you do need to keep the basement from freezing.

jim

Pete_18

Left side picture

Pete_18

Right side picture

Pete_18

Right side picture

Pete_18

Ventrite Model

The Ventrite adjustable model says "NO. 1" on it. The reason I don't think it's doing it's job is that as soon as I take it off, a HUGE flow of air comes out of the unit. I am thinking of buying 3 Gorton C's for the cold radiators to see if that does the trick until the main can be vented. I can buy D's, but I'm afraid of buying something that is overkill given that these are not enormous radiators (although they are on the far side of the house)

Steamhead (in transit)

Are the cold radiators

toward the ends of the mains?

Pete_18

Cold Radiators and Venting

Yes, the cold radiators are two of the bedrooms on the second floor (far side from the boiler) and the third floor radiator (single bedroom on third floor). It's difficult to tell exactly where they come off the main since the dead men didn't leave me a map, but I can only assume that they're near the end.

In case it's relevant, I have a one-pipe steam system, not two-pipe.

I think Jim is right on regarding the main vents being an issue because as soon as I take the Ventrite or other vents off the cold radiators, they immediately warm up and you can hear air rush out of them, like the air is just dying to get out and can't get out fast enough.

I assume main vents should be vented on BOTH one and two-pipe systems? Only reason I ask the question is that the only mention of main vents on Dan's web site seems to refer to two-pipe systems. If main vents aren't relevant for one-pipe systems then perhaps I just need to buy some Gorton C's or D's for these 'cold' units. Does anyone know of any plumbing supply places in Eastern Mass (preferably North of Boston) that carry them? I will give Gorton's a call tomorrow.

There seems to be some conflicting information regarding what type of vents to buy. Gorton seems to say use larger vents the colder/greater distance you are away vs. other information seems to imply you should size vents on the unit regardless of the location.

I should add that the units definitely do not heat up at an equal speed, the units closest to the radiator and on the first floor heat up much faster.

Pete_18

Ordered my books

On a good note, my books are on order and I also ordered the E-booklet (PDF) that you mentioned that has the venting rates.

I think I'm finally starting to get where the issues are thanks to everyone's help.

Insulation has certainly made a difference and I need to complete insulating.

Next I need to get some properly installed and quality (i.e. Gorton) main vents which will get the steam to moving fast all the way down the line (vs. today where certain areas heat much faster than others). Once the mains are vented, then I can actually vent each radiator properly vs. today where the whole system is struggling to vent out of the radiators and where it can't, the radiators are cold as ice and the system is basically choking itself on air that won't vent out.

Steamhead (in transit)

That's great

those end rads don't get steam because they are trying to handle air from the mains. Properly-sized main vents will cure this.

Once you have measured the length and diameter of your mains (you probably already have this info since you got insulation for them) you will know how much air you need to vent.

Size your main vents from the 2-ounce column in the chart. I bet you wind up with one or more Gorton #2 vents per main.

Jim Franklin_2

Right side

In that picture, there's a horizontal pipe about 2' in length with insulation that looks like a radiator feed. Just after it is a vertical pipe. Where does that go? And does the main go to the boiler when it turns down and changes sizes in that picture? If so, how far away is the boiler?

jim

Pete_18

On the right side, it is a 3 inch black iron for about 30-40 ft including the turn left at the end (would need to remeasure to be exact). The 2 ft horizontal run is a radiator feed at the far. I believe this run goes to one of the bedrooms that wasn't heating up until I put on a Gorton C to help it vent (given that it's basically venting for the entire main you can hear the air rush out of it).

The feed you see drop down goes all the way to the ground and then returns to the boiler.

There isn't 15 inches of room between the elbow at the end and the radiator feed you see in the picture so will a replacement piece that is longer need to be used with a nipple attached so that the main vent(s) can go off of it? I am really hoping that I have enough height clearance for the Gorton 2. I think I can fit the 6 3/4 in. but perhaps not if it should be mounted off a pipe that goes up 6-12 inches on top of the black copper main.

Jim Franklin_2

You described every pipe but the one I'm asking about :-)

Just past that closest radiator takeoff is a vertical pipe, coming off a tee. What's that?

jim

Pete_18

Sorry, I had to go down and look at it to see. It's another run to a radiator that I haven't insulated yet, just north of the picture it turns in to a 45' run up.

--

From that tee to the end of the elbow where the main ends is unfortunately less than 15 inches.

thfurnitureguy_4

DUDE get a big pipe wrench, a map torch, sawsall. Cut the section of return, heat and remove the pipe at the elbow, replace it with a nipple and a union. heat ane remove the short piece of 3" before the reduction El add a close nip, a reduction T (down to 3/4") for you vents and another nip to make up the diference and put it back the way it was with vents. get er done! or call the pro Its not a big job for how much it will change your system. Its like if you ran out of gas at the gas pump, you keep cranking the car and stick the gas fill in, and start pumping. By the time you get enough gas to the pickup hose for the fuel pump, the starter is baked or the batery is dead. you need the mains full of steam as fast as possible (like 1-3 min after the boiler makes steam) Your stat will satisify before the steam gets to the radiators at the end of the run. You will save the cost in fuel this year alone by fixing this now. Venting 40' of pipe through the radiators is not the answer.