Early 1900's condo building one-pipe steam heat woes!

Derek Kolakowski

Hello All,

I have recently become affiliated with a early 1900's condo building with a one pipe steam heating system and am having problems setting up the heating system to make all 25 units happy. (yes I know, "never all the people, all the time")

The building is 5 floors (incluing unheated basement.) The thermostat is located on an interior wall in middle of the 3rd floor and there is only one radiator for the halls, located on the first floor right next to the entrance. (assumedly to keep the cold out) The hall ways run from front to back, down the center of the building with condos on either side.

The problem is, with all the condo doors shut and no venting, each condo is effectivly its own heating zone, and since the fire doors are usually kept open the halls/stairs become one large heating zone.

Now, the hallways, as expected, are the last to heat and is not able to be regulated other than the ambient temp of the building. It is for these reasons that they must have had the themostat put there. But at the same time its almost completley insulated from outside so it doesn't loose heat as fast as the condos so the condos get cold but the heat won't come on since the thermostat still sees a higher temp.

The thought would be to put the thermostat inside a condo but then access becomes a problem, not to mention an owner not wanting the thermostat in a big plastic lock box in their living room, or even worse, that owner keeps their condo's radiators wide open so it is always 70+ degrees.

We are currently looking into themostatic radiator valves to try to make sure when the furnace is on the steam distributes best as possible. But the problem is that the furnace doesn't come on.

The only other solution that they could come up with was to pulse the heat on/off throughout the day but that is far from fuel efficient. Not to mention it causes it to be hot and cold but never a steady temp.

Just seeing if anyone has a solution/idea that doesn't involve redoing the entire heating system. I have been playing with the idea of putting in multiple thermostats but again the halls don't fluctuate enough and putting simple temp sensors in a few of the condos leaves it up to the condo owners too much!

Thanks in advance,
Derek

Joe Brix

Take a look at Tekmar 269

Has outdoor and indoor sensor to calculate when to cycle steam system. www.tekmarcontols.com

thfurnitureguy_4

Derick, I bet at one time in the last 105 years the system worked and worked well. look for changes in the system. If I had to take an only slightly educated guess the system started life as a coal fired system and the main vents are missing inoperative or undersized. You must have the mains vented properly before it can function and heat the apartments at the same time. Are the radiators in the hall feading near the start of the main line? If so they are heating first and longest TRVs will help after the mains are addressed. Any missing insulation on pipes? If you are not the DIY king call a steam expert from the professional page. They are good. Your stat should live inside a represtative room, one that has the same windows and radiators as other apartments. Can you hide a stat in a book shelf or such? Where was the location of the old stat? I had a landloard gut a smoke detector and place a stat inside. Just a thought. It may not be cool with the code people. Best of luck and CALL A PRO!

J. Young

I've found myself in similar situations before. The Tekmar product does seem to do what the system my father has come up with does.

Essentially, he used a microprocessor to control 24 individual settings, one for each hour of the day and each can be set to run a predetermined time, depending on the weather.

I've found that setting the thing to run every other hour (from 20 to 45 minutes) keeps large apt./ condo buildings evenly heated throughout the day. It also keeps the gas bills down and, because the boiler water nevers gets cold, it pretty closely replicates an old coal-fired setup.

I think the key is the more settings, the better. Several neighbors use controls that have limited settings and some of them end up having to run the boiler for hours at a time to get the whole place heated up and the heat is uneven and inconsistant.

bb

check the library

Hello Derek:

In "The Library" here on HeatingHelp.com there is info on 1 Pipe Steam Systems that should help you.

Also, in the "Books and More" section you may want to get Dan's book "We've got Steam Heat"!

Make sure your boiler piping is correct, pipes are insulated and the main vents are the right size.

This is not a DIY project for most people. Click on the "Find a Professional" link to locate someone in your area.

Installing TRVs in each unit will help to maintain comfort, and save fuel each and every heating season.

Warm Regards,

bb

Derek Kolakowski

Hi everyone...

Joey2brix: I'm gonna have a look at that tekmar product as soon as my computer decides to function properly.

Casspark: That is what they were doing earlier. But they were running it in big chunks 2-3 hours, down for a few hours, back up for a few hours. Maybe pulsing it would work.

furniture guy: there is only one radiator in the halls and it is at the other end of the building from the boiler. It may be right on a main, I am not sure but since it is 2 floors down and the entire hallway/stair system must be at least 1000 sqft I didn't really think it would be causing the problem.

Billburton: Thanks for the suggestions. I did take a look around before I posted. I am a RTFM sort of guy but I must have missed them.

Just for clarification; the concern not so much that the building isn't heating, its more about where do I locate a thermostat to get 26 different condos to heat properly when its currently in a hallway that is the last to warm up and last to loose heat. I can muck about with the radiators but figuring out how to make the boiler run efficiently is the killer. Thanks for the ideas and keep em comming!

Steamhead (in transit)

We ran into a similar situation

where the building was heating slowly and unevenly. As long as this is the case, no control will work properly. You need to make sure the steam distributes quickly and evenly thru the mains, so all radiators get steam at about the same time.

To see how we did it, go here:

http://forums.invision.net/Thread.cfm?CFApp=2&Thread_ID=29563&mc=52

If you're in the Baltimore area, get in touch. If not, try the Find a Professional page of this site to locate a real steam man near you.

"Steamhead"

Derek Kolakowski

Heat-Timer

Just got some more information. I spoke with one of the more wiser (spelled o-l-d-e-r) and it seems that at one time the building was operated via an external temperature sensor. So a bit of foraging into the basement revealed a Heat-Timer heating control Model EPC. Now alot of people here spoke about the tekmar unit (model 269) but has anyone had experience with the Heat-Timer brand?

D107

heat timers

derek,

as a coop president for years -- and son of an HVAC engineer--i ended up being the one dealing with the heating system. The many fine heating pros on this site can much more easily give you specific products and details, but from my experience I tell you this:

1-In apartment buildings you really can't have even a sophisticated thermostat in anyone's apartment or a hallway; just too many variables and it won't be able to give you accurate readings as to when to start a heating cycle and when to stop. Whomever has the thermostat in their apartment will get dirty looks, phone calls or knocks on the door demanding they turn it up or down.

2-We had an old 1980's non-digital Heat Timer which we tweaked and it worked well. The new ones of whatever brand are much more sophisticated; they work with an outside sensor, an indoor sensor on the return line. Additional sensors can also be hidden in various areas of the building.
You can vary the length of a heating cycle given a particular outside temperature, and what point the cycle will start again based on the indoor sensors.

3-However you need a pro there (a real heating guy, not a guy who may be a great plumber who can install vents, etc. but not diligently look at a whole system.)to:
a. check your mains and returns, make sure the boiler is clean, the burner is firing correctly. (Returns have to be flushed annually, usually by a boiler maintenance company who also add an anti-corrosion chemical.)
b. The heating guy can also tell you if the system is sized and piped correctly, if the fresh air intake is adequate, chimney flue is clear, etc. Put a water meter on the boiler to be able to tell if the system is losing water due to leaks, etc.
c. Balance the venting system so that air is quickly vented out and people get heat at relatively the same time. There are expensive thermostatic heating vents out there that individual tenants can install on their radiators to reduce the heat if they feel it's too hot. You should check EVERY radiator in the building to see if it's leaking, heating correctly, etc.

I can only tell you that working with good contractors and heating advisors we were able to do all that and save alot of $$ and make ALMOST everyone happy. My Dad always joked that the best thing would be to put a decoy thermostat in everyone's apartment that permanently read '72 degrees'...

good luck....

David

ChrisL

Steam heat in condo

I manage a number of midsize apartment buildings with steam. It is a very difficult job to consistently get even heat in all apartments. Wind exposure is the biggest difficulty, as there can be 5-6 degree differences in apartments depending upon their wind exposure. If you heat the coolest apartment to 68, and then the wind shifts and now the coolest apartment becomes the hottest (maybe 78) all in the span of a day, people get angry with the swings. A heat timer of tekmar control cannot solve this problem. Let me add that it is assumed a steam heated condo is an older building with little insulation and leaky windows. Let me also mention that people expect more even heat nowadays. Here's what I would do

1. Try to minimize differences between condo's as far as insulation, window quality, etc.

2. Install a controller/thermostat that will take an average temp reading of a number of apartments. Using a controller that uses INDOOR temperature will compenste for wind. (esicontroller or rd systems) Tekmar cannot do this, as it only uses the indoor temp reading to turn boiler off, not on.

3. Consider using trv's on the larger radiators.

Best of Luck,

Chris L

Derek Kolakowski

Heat loss

C_Lober:

I think you hit the nail on the head. The problem is more of a rate of heat loss than it is rate of heat gain. Since the condo's are loosing heat faster than the hallway where the thermostat is we can't get it right. I am talking with the Condo Board about moving the thermostat in the interum while we research the control units.

I asked about when the last time the system was audited and was told its checked every year right before the heating system when its filled up. In theory this means the system up to the radiators operates properly. As for checking the radiators, that proves to be difficult since they are Condo's and not appartments. There is no master key and getting people home and gaining acces proves a bit difficult. To this end we are looking at TRV's but I am having some difficulty locating information to justify the 50-75 each cost. They just keep asking how much these valves will cut off the bill.

I have contacted Heat-Timer and tekmar about their controllers to see what we are looking at for regarding pricing. It seems the condo had a Heat-Timer system some time in the past (1970's from the info I gather) and is probably not serviceable but who knows.

Thanks again everyone for your help so far and any experience selling these units to condo boards (cheap ones at that) please let me know!

Tim Kelley

R&D Controls

You may want to check out R & D controls, I have used them for ten years now on one pipe systems in 28 buildings ranging from 14 to 36 apartments. The system I use has two remote sensors. You can use the system on warmest unit, coldest , or average between the two. The controls can be mounted in the boiler room, and also has a set back time clock with 6 different times that can be programmed on various combinations of times and days. I usually only set back 2-3 degrees on a steam system. As most of our tenants are gone during the day, I warm it up in the morning for a couple of hours, set it back , and then warm it up in the afternoon before they return. On weekends I lengthen the times. It also includes an out door sensor to shut the boiler down in warmer weather. You can find more information at rdcontrolsytems.com

D107

thermostatic heat valves

Derek,

(Again, I'm not a heating pro, just former co-op Pres.) For info on the Danfoss Thermostatic heat valves check out the heating help website 'Library' link where you'll see a free pdf of the literature. After you get a heating PRO to check out and balance your entire system, you may only need to install them on a few radiators in certain apts. It's a matter of comfort not necessarily savings. If you set the building at 72, some people will want 68, some will want 80. Those that want it lower can use the TRVs.

I know owners are not always amenable to spending money on preventive and active maintenance on something they can't see. Sounds like you will have savings if you balance your system, but more importantly most people will feel more comfortable with the upgrade and your tuned system will run better and last longer, which also saves money.

In many apt. buildings the old piping and radiators may have been sized and installed properly (or not) but we found so many things wrong with the installation of the replacement boiler because the former landlord did it only when he had to in the dead of winter. For one thing the boiler was installed 3 feet higher than it should have been, etc.

David