any news about the new weil-Mclain ULTRAOIL boiler

Ron Schroeder

Hi Chris,

CO is about the same in PPM or a little less. It is higher for a longer time during warm up but the total volume of exhaust per minute is less so the total amount of CO per cycle is about the same or less.

Excess air and CO2 readings are only off if you don't adjust the air band to the smaller nozzle and use the low fire baffle. If you do adjust for zero smoke, you can get it at a slightly LESS excess air percentage for slightly higher efficiency.

As I mentioned before, you must have the proper chimney for the firing rate. The Burnham was in a shed with a short 3" chimney and the Buderus is direct venting thru 4".

For a buffer, how about a horizontal inside out indirect under the boiler? Does anybody make a horizontal inside out indirect?

Ron

Don C

new weil-Mclain ultraoil boiler

I have the link to the new Weil-Mclain ultraOil boiler.
here it is:
http://www.weil-mclain.com/ultraoil/WelcomeToFamily.pdf
It reminds me of a old axmen-anderson steel boiler from 25 years ago only they made it cast iron and added more fins.
With the cost of oil so high I think this new unit will sell well.
I would like to from anyone else with info on this new toy.

Mitch_4

nice looking boiler

Hydronics is not my specialty nor is oil, as I live in nat gas - forced air country, but I am learning as I want to promote and specialize in radiant / hydronics..just need the time to get more training.

Other than a new 3 pas design, and a nice look, what is the big advantage. The DOE / IBR efficiency is only 1/2% better than many other US boilers. It has a more Euro Look,and some controls are built in, but I can get a tekmar to do that. it is still 40" tall and about 22 wide like most others, but a bit shallower.

Would love more info too please.

Mitch

Firedragon_4

The major differences

for oilmen will be cleanliness and operating noise.

IMO, the Ultra oil and the Burnham MPO are the first two true US boilers made for oil in over 30 years. The Euros have never broken the rule I was taught while just a baby heatingman.

That rule is 'horizontal flues are for oil, vertical flues are for gas'. Essentially, the US boiler companies just took their state-of-the-art gas boiler (vertical pin-types) and cast a wet-base under them, oil boilers were lost except overseas.

JMO again, but this action coupled with high-speed flame retention burners led to boilers that were just too tight, were very difficult to make run clean and noise levels went supersonic.

Although high-speed flame retention can't be beat and is now the base component of all new oil, low-NOX and gas (blown) powerburners both here and in Europe I am very pleased to see the re-emergence of true oil boilers from US foundries.

Although many won't like to hear this, these designs (and I predict many more) are due to the increasing loss of sales to the Euro's not what's best for the oil industry, sorry!

Now my critics, as usual, can kill me, LOL!

Mitch_4

thanks Firedragon

Your insight is valued as I respect your opinions, like I said this is in an area I am weak on, oil and boilers, as I have gas forced air (gas about 97%, FA about 90%) in my area. Radiant is the new kid on the block.

Again..my thanks.

Mitch

Ron Schroeder

I think that the number one advantage of the three pass boilers is that the whole heat exchanger is cleaned from the front so there is more of a chance that the boiler will actually be cleaned on a tune up (instead of just the eazy parts being cleaned) so it will KEEP it's efficiency after the first season.

Most boilers after the first couple of years are nowhere near their rated efficiency because they have never been cleaned properly.

Ron

Ron

Kal Row

it's going to up against ...

the monitor "fcx" condensing oil http://www.monitorproducts.com/fcx.htm,

and the system2000 from http://www.energykinetics.com/s2000.html,

not to mention the slant-fin intrepid seald, which might be 3-5 points less on the afue, but costs almost half
http://www.slantfin.com/spec-intrepiddv.html

Firedragon_4

What a fruit basket! The intrepid is a

pin-type vertical boiler, same old, same-old.

The Monitor is condensing and the System is a 3-pass steel.

The two cast units are three-pass.

I really don't think comparing one of these to the others is a comparison at all regardless of price, JMO.

Unknown

I dunno about the AFUE, but if it modulates like the gas units, with a radiant system, you can drop your water temperatures and still leave out about $750-$1000 in mixing controls for most systems.

J.C.A._3

NRT.rob,

Modulating oil...the DREAM.

We can get 2 stage in very large residential boilers(and on almost all commercial units) but the bottom line on residential modulating oil comes down to the oil itself, and the availability of boilers that can handle low firing rates without self destructing.

Herrman burner in Germany has a modulating oil burner, and it works well with tight, tiny boilers. Firing rates are from .3 GPH up to.70GPH. I can only think of 1 boiler available in the states that fires lower than .65, and it wouldn't be in any of my customers homes. The fuel quality is low and sulfer content is way too high for these units to perform consistantly at this time. Small fires = small flue temps. and condensing will occur. The sulfer from the fuel, mixed with the water from condensing will eat anything in its path....flue piping, boiler sections and anything else that is metal in the process.

Things ARE changing....but not fast enough for us to see these burners anytime soon. The powers that be are making the rules with the money supplied by the same folks trying to give us clean fuel, and they can't make enough money to justify the costs...just yet.The new "Energy Bill" (farce!) may help a bit, but why rock the boat? Things are going just fine for both parties right now, no sense changing something that works! (nudge, nudge, wink wink , say no more, say no more) Chris

Constantin

... or the VitoPlus...

... which (sadly) is only available in Europe. Single-chamber condensing oil boiler just like the Vitodens, with a 2-stage Vitoflame burner. I presume that once the allowable sulfur limits in US heating oil drop that Viessmann may be persuaded to bring it in. As there is only one HX (Stainless), the modulating burner poses no flue condensation issues unlike the FCX which has a primary and secondary chamber.

Jed_2

Speaking of Price

I understand the MPO has a significantlty higher price point than Buderus G's, and there are other 3-Passers lower still, with good quality iron, and not U.S. made. I agree with "buy American", but with no other advantage and requiring 2 weightlifters to set it, what are the other advantages?

Jed

J.C.A._3

Constantin,

At ISH, I saw a bevy of condensing oil boilers. Most are based on currently available systems.(like the "multi-oil" boiler we saw at Brookhaven, basically an oil fired Munchkin, turned sideways, with a two stage fuel unit arrangement)

Until our oil quality meets the current EU properties, we aren't going to see all the available options. I think the oil suppliers kind of like it that way. JMHO. Chris

Don C

I just heard that this ultra oil will not be available until around Oct 2005.

Firedragon_4

Ain't it the truth,

> I think that the number one advantage of the

> three pass boilers is that the whole heat

> exchanger is cleaned from the front so there is

> more of a chance that the boiler will actually be

> cleaned on a tune up (instead of just the eazy

> parts being cleaned) so it will KEEP it's

> efficiency after the first season.

>

> Most

> boilers after the first couple of years are

> nowhere near their rated efficiency because they

> have never been cleaned properly.

>

> Ron

>

> Ron



Most boilers after the first couple of years are nowhere near their rated efficiency because they have never been cleaned properly.

See the

Firedragon_4

Ain't it the truth,

QUOTE: "Most boilers after the first couple of years are nowhere near their rated efficiency because they have never been cleaned properly."

See the thread on water (steam) washing.

Unknown

Apparently

You may have been misinformed about the MPO boiler. If you check with some of your local distributors you will find that the MPO price point is quite competitive with the other 3-pass cast iron boilers out there. What you want to look for is the BTU comparisons Jed. None of the others have provisions for accessing the rear canopy for cleaning without removing the flue pipe. Leveling legs are already installed when you get it. All flue passes are in alignment for much easier cleaning and internal mixing is already built into the boiler. How about a provision for a LWCO and Auxiliary High Limit in the supply tree and predone molex plugs for all of the controls including the LWCO and Aux. Limit. Quiet so sound deadoning mufflers are not neccessary. Lots of good features if you take a closer look Jed and keep an open mind. As far as the weight thing.....well thats just the nature of cast iron boilers! Hope this helps.



Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

paul sr

WM Ultra

we have had one in our shop for about a year now.had a carlin ez first, then a riello. wouldnt dream of connecting one to a masonary chimney, and not to fond of the little toggle service switch. other than that it runs very quiet, is easy to service, and pulls great #'s.

Kal Row

you are missing my point...

how much fuel in, to energy out?, and total cost per btu over it's life including buy,install,run

the ultra "gas" fired, makes a huge difference - by it's turndown ability to match a load in realtime - so that one is tops - but the specs on the oil unit dont "whelm" me

Ron Schroeder

Hi Chris,

You can underfire a conventional boiler a lot more than you think with the proper controls and chimney. I just finished a test of running a Burnham 5 section boiler at .25gph with an AFG and am presently running a Buderus G115-21 at .5 liter/Hr. The key is to have the boiler temperature get above 115 degrees for at least 1 minute on every burner cycle.

The .25gph is done with a conventional pressure nozzle and really requires carefull filtering of the oil to keep from plugging up. The .5 liter/Hr burner is using air atomization so it is less effected by oil quality.

As much as we want to think modulation and ultra low firing rates are the key to saving fuel, similar improvements can be achieved with wider differentials and/or buffer tanks without worrying about fuel quality as much.

A 2 stage burner is probably a much more practical alternative than a modulating burner since it would be much easier to set up.

Ron

Firedragon_4

I'm with you kal, really!

If you do compare the cost of a horizontal flue to a vertical and especially the servicing cost and operating efficiency the horizontal will win.

If the boiler can run cleaner for longer periods of time that's point one.

If the service is easier than it should take less time, point two.

Although at this point AFUE is all we have, it's not fool-proof and doesn't spell it all out, three.

Finally, since the install cost will probably come out within pennies no matter what is used the price difference of the long run will be virtually nothing.

'Life-cost' is something that many don't look at, that's one for you, a big one. But, I've done a lot of life-costing on commercial stuff and three-passes are very hard to beat, FACT!

Firedragon_4

Why the burner switch,

just playing around?

Why not a masonry chimney? Noise, condensing problems, all of it?

Kal Row

You are probably right, otherwise Weil-McLain …

probably would not have bothered, as we don’t really see the others flying off the shelves

Firedragon_4

Not a matter of

being right, just what makes sense and it still is JMO!

J.C.A._3

Ron,

Underfiring a boiler kind of defeats the purpose...doesn't it ?

Think about what is happening to that tiny flame in a boiler that is supposed to be firing.... The flame is now cooler, producing copius amounts of CO, and the excess air and o2 reading has now gone through the roof thereby negating any gains from firing so low. 115° for at least a minute per cycle? I'd like to be the fluepipe salesman in that area!

My point is that there aren't any BOILERS capable of firing these low rates consistantly enough at the present time. I'm a huge fan of (at least) double filtration, but that isn't going to take all the nasties that the government says are OK to be in there, out. Know what I mean?

A buffer tank set up would be the berries, to say the least... (stored energy, what a concept!)but installers are fighting tooth and nail to get space for just simple boilers and hot water tanks. Do you think Joe homeowner is going to give up enough space for a hot-tub, without an actual hot-tub beig there?

P.S., I still have the cut sheet on the Suppart/Herrmann Microcontrol pump that you asked me about. Send me an address and it's in the mail to you the next day. Chris

Jed_2

Admittedly just hearsay, Glen

The comment about the price point did come from a competing Rep. Didn't really explore it further, and not sure where he got his info(but, being a Mfgr's Rep, he does get around). No hard numbers were discussed.

So,Reping the competition for which there is no answer, I was playing devil's advocate.

Sounds like a nice piece of equipment, weight notwithstanding.

Jed
p.s. Regarding The BTU ratings, from memory, the MPO does start rather high, given the many lower building requirments these days.

J.C.A._3

George,

You're on this like white on rice, and I couldn't agree more! When I first started, all those long years ago....I was taught the same things. My recollection is having to take a saw to any pin boilers that sat dormant over the summer and coming home as dirty and smelly as an underground sanitation enginner every day. With the old Arco/American Standard/Ideal double/3 door multi-pass units, servicing was a breeze.

When the neighbors saw black smoke coming from the chimney, you had DAYS, not HOURS to get to it before a catastrophic situation developed.

I'm sure you can regale us all with tales of the first Pensotti boilers brought into the country. Simple AND effective and servicing was (and still is ) a breeze.

As to the points that Glenn brought up....I also agree. He and I stood in the Burnham traveling road lab, and had a NORMAL conversation while the MPO boiler was running right beside us. Quiet to be sure and all the thoughts that oil tecnicians put forward to Burnham were listened to and incorporated in the design.Kudos to them! Chris

paul sr

hi george, was good to meet you at carlin u. you put on a great show.

we are using an all fuel chimney. its growing cauliflower at the seams and base (300 gross).

as for that crappy little switch...why? just why? lol

Firedragon_4

Thanks Paul,

the pleasure was mine.

Gotcha on the pidgeon droppings :-) and I have nothing to say on the switch, UL maybe?

Unknown

Smallest Size

The smallest size has an IBR Net Rating of 64,000 BTUH using a .50 gph nozzle operating at 150# of pump pressure. That isn't really too small in comparison to other equipment out there.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

Jim\"Rocky\"Kelleher

Reminds me of the Italian boiler

I'll wait see how they pan out but this heating season I'll stick with the Pensotti,horizontal flue, swing out door makes cleaning easy beans.Haven't done it, but side wall venting is possible.
Great thread, it's good to see the oil guys priming up for the season.

J.C.A._3

Jim,

Us oil guys gotta stick together. When we see something that works, we embrace it. When we see something that has been tried before, we'll always give it another shot....but with some constructive critisizsm to make the makers think some more.

This is a form of "Paying it Forward". Darin asked about it last night. Lessons learned and hopefully passed on. Chris.

David_5

Burnham MPO

I heard the MPO run. It is not quieter than a regular oil fired boiler.

David