HO vs. PRO

Kal Row

mess with a burner assembly and the CO can go way up, that’s why brand new appliances can have bad co reading - cause it gets jostled out of adjustment in shipping, and if you don’t have a CO tester to check it, how ya gona know?
so i don’t like to advise people on burner service

as for live experience - well i'd rather learn from others experience, "experience" means, that you or the customer got hurt - physically or monetarily, so screw "experience" - i was never afraid to ask another professional so that i did it right the first time

JohnBarnes

HO vs PRO

I saw an earlier thread on "Personal Attacks" that I felt could be spun off on a different yet related tangent as follows:

There are often more subtle (but overt) "attacks" when a Homeowner comes here to ask a simple question and instead of receiving any useful advice they are given the response to "call a professional." (as if the HO is completely incapable understanding whatever answer you might have been willing to offer to another pro)

That is one of the reasons I stopped visiting here as much as I used to as I often found I went away with no useful advice, only the edict to "call a qualified professional."

What you pros need to realize is that there are a lot of us HO's out here that have much more techinically difficult and intellectually challenging professions than you might imagine (and who also own a lot of tools and know how to use them) So working on a boiler, or whatever, just might not be as complicated to the HO as you think.

I often see the excuse (to not help) stated that boilers, and anything with a flame (gas or oil) are so dangerous, etc. and that is why the HO needs to enlicit the help of a "qualified professional."

Well, there are a lot of other things out in the real world that are not only much more dangerous, but also much more techinically difficult to undertstand than a home heating sytem. There are also a lot of us HO's out here who have multiple, advanced degrees and very high mechanical aptitudes notwithstanding the fact that we haven't "worked in the trade" for the past 10 years.

And a lot of us sit at desks all day and like to blow off steam working with tools on the weekend and we do this as a form of relaxation. I will never enlicit a "pro" to work on my heating system because that is one of my hobbies. (That would be like hiring someone else to play golf for me)

So, rather than assume all HO's are idiots, why not just answer their questions? To do otherwise is also a form of "personal attack."

Constantin

As a fellow homeowner...

... allow me to agree and disagree...

I agree that the recurring chorus here is for HO's to call a professional to ensure that their home heating system won't break, hurt, or kill them. The assumption being, that the professionals the HO can locate are as passionate and professional about their trades as we'd like them to be.

Then there are the HO's that have acquired a lot of knowledge or experience in perhaps related fields and thus have little difficulty comprehending the intricacies of their heating systems. They benefit from minimal guidance with a detail here or there that others have learned in the "school of hard knocks".

However, most HO's lack the experience and testing equipment to set systems up to safely combust, etc. Changing a vent on a steam system is in a different category than setting an air-shutter... and unless you have access to some $$$ testing equipment, you won't know whether your work is going to be safe, economical, and reliable.

Furthermore, most HO's come to the Wall with quite general questions, such as: "do these boiler choices seem reasonable?", or, "should I switch my steam heating system to hot water?", etc., not the deep technical questions that tradespeople maybe ask each other.

Plus, there are some Wall participants that refuse to help a homeowner with any questions regarding their heating system out of principle. They feel that any money the HO saves as a result of their advice is less money for a fellow tradesperson somewhere out there. IMO, this is a simplistic reaction, but hey, no one is paid to participate here (with the exception of Dan, of course).

Like you, I derive a lot of pleasure from working on the heating system in my home. Yesterday, I took another class at Viessmann to educate myself about their control logic. When I came back to the home, I jumped right into the Vitotrol and noticed that my heating professional had set maybe 6 settings and left the rest as is.

Perhaps he meant to come back and fine tune the system at one point... but I don't understand the logic of setting a low max. supply temperature for the low-temp system (which is a good thing, obviously) and combining that with a heating curve gradient of 1.4. How about setting the flue gas temp alarm when the customer had you install a flue gas temp sensor? Etc.

In other words, I am very glad that I took the classes at Viessmann (thanks Jim and Jane!), as it gave me an opportunity to educate myself and verify that my boiler system is set up as efficiently as I would like it to be. Next week, I learn how to service the Vitola... yay! ... but I'm not taking the class to put a serviceperson out of business.

Keith_8

Your point is well taken but..

To assume that everyone who asks questions regarding their heating system with potentially dangerous implications is competent to handle the task would be foolish.

The fact that you in particular have technical credentials but lack the field experience is not a problem.

In my opinion when it comes to combustion issues that should be left to a professional.

I blow off steam by doing by working in the yard. You chose to work on your heating system, no problem.

The fact that seasoned professionals advise to call someone in to handle a complicated issue is an act of kindness not to be taken as an attack. They have nothing personally to be gained either way.

Keith

ScottMP

John,

Heres the problem as I see it.

I don't know you, I don't know your experience level or what degrees you hold. I have no idea if you actually have a firm grasp on the subject matter or are just " full of your self ".

If I, or anyone else here, give you advice on how to change the settings on your gas equipment and God forbid at tragic accident happens, how am I to feel. Worse Yet, what is my legal exposure ?

Its very difficult over a keyboard to ascertain your abilty. Sometimes a few questions are asked in such a way that makes the proffesional feel as if the request for help may come from someone whos is not fully capable of safely completing the project.

All that being said, yes your right there are sometimes when "get a professional" comes out to quick.

Please understand that the responce may come from a contractor who just came out a dirty enviroment, working for a customer who did not fully appreciate his worth and now "another" H.O. ask for some free advice. We're not allways in the best of moods and many contractors come here to be with other who may have shared his work load. Not to give away what he has worked years to gather.

So theres my excuses

Thanks for bring this up, its a good thing for both sides to understand.

Scott





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Chuck Shaw_4

I will piggy back on Scott

by saying, that I have walked into a number of DIY jobs that were done wonderfully, probably better than many contractors would have done. I have also walked into some nightmares.

In the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, as in many other states, we have a permitting process. When a system is installed, or has a major change in fuel or venting, an inspection is required. For plumbing, gas and oil this requires a permit, which in MA, only a licensed person may apply for. This insures, that at the time the work was done, it is up to current code. You as a homeowner, will not be in that house forever. You may sell the home for any reason, or you will die. These inspections will ensure to whomever lives in the home after you go, that when the system was installed, it was correct.

In Massachusetts, this applies only to the fuel, venting and electric portions of a heating system. Not to the heat emitters, or near boiler piping (residential). There is no code for heating systems, only the fuel, venting and electric.

Also, if a DIY homeowner does work, and then moves, the new homeowner may "call a professional" to look at the heating system. In some cases, this can cause a extra work and expense because it was not installed with service in mind. Again, I am not saying that all "professionals" would install this way, but many do. The cost of a small fitting now, can save many $$$$ down the road.

On the wall, we have also seen posts that ask questions, like "Can I use PVC to pipe my steam boiler, or should I use CPVC." I am sure, after reading a few questions like that you may understand where our "Call a pro" attitude comes from.

I will never make an excuse or try to justify another's actions or words, these statements come from my own experience.

Chuck Shaw

Ted_9

Like what?

[quote]Well, there are a lot of other things out in the real world that are not only much more dangerous, but also much more technically difficult to understand than a home heating system.[/quote]

I want to know. Give me some examples. Your car? Roofing? Pruning bushes? Will those things kill you or your family?
(speaking generally now)
I don't want to seem hostile, but prove your case to us. So what if your an engineer. I have done jobs for engineers and architects. They may understand the mechanics, but they lack the technical expertise to do the job.

Suppose a home owner can solder pipe. Great, a first year apprentice can do that. But he's not doing complete boiler installs.

I also agree that sometimes(maybe most of the time) Pros on this site,myself included, respond with "Find a Pro" too quickly.

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Firedragon_4

Well said

and very accurate. I just got finished working with a Home Inspector, a plumber and an electrician on a large home just placed on the market in MA.

The homeowner (yup, you guessed it an engineer, EE) did his own wiring, heating (oil tank and burner) and plumbing. Although it may look very good to a layman, it is a mess as far as codes are concerned.

The report was forwarded to the bank who killed the sale of the house. It is now on the record, FACT!

This action has kicked the Building Department into overdrive. To correct the house so that it is saleable the seller must drop the price or fix it! BTW, the town has also now placed a 90 day 'fix-it' on the house or he loses his occupancy permit.

Estimates are running between $60,000 and $80,000, no kidding.

Question? What did he gain and on top of that what chances did he take with his family and property?

BTW, although a homeowner may do wiring (in MA) it must be permitted and inspected and match code. As Chuck said plumbing, gasfitting, pipefitting for oil and all burners must be done by licensed pro's.

So, while you're computing your savings the HO must figure in the cost of code books, JMO!

As to the rest of the work done around a home a HO should first find out what he/she can do legally and what falls under what can be done to 'maintain his castle'.

Not to heat the debate up any more just a matter of what I see in my travels.

Dave Yates (PAH)

I can cook!

Some pretty darn good meals too. But, my niece is a professional cook - a graduate from the CIA (Culinary Institute of America). While I've always thought I was pretty damn good at sharpening our knives with one of those hand-held sharpening rods (like stropping a razor), she came around one day and during the course of prepping some food, asked if we'd like her to sharpen the knives? A quick trip to her car & back she came with her sharpening kit. Let's just say I learned there was much to learn about knife sharpening that I did not know existed. I'm pretty darn sure I could have shaved with them.

Same goes for food prep. Oh, I can cook & that let's me "blow off steam" on the weekends too, but when she cooks a meal - the results are gastronomic delights I could never begin to replicate.

Now, if I were a total stranger to her and appeared on a public BB she frequented with other professional cooks to claim her skills were nothing special (by inuendo) and that I could just as easily do what it is she does simply because I possesed the tools of her trade, I'd expect she would get her Irish up a wee bit.

With a few exceptions, the adverse reactions to HO posts I've seen here, follow that line of reasoning. The HO's who have given respect seem to get that returned - in spades. JMHO.

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Ragu

My Two Cents

A sticky wicket, indeed. There are intricacies of this trade (or any other), that can only be learned from direct hands-on experience. My own worst nightmarish hard-earned work experiences; these I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. I've seen the Dragon, and I have a healthy respect for him.

Nobody knows everything. I think each person has to be able to understand his/her limits.

hr

What I like to see in a HO

I like when the HOs have taken the time to research the options. I like homeowners that already know about R value, efficiency ratings, DHW needs and production, installation options, etc. This helps the pro contractor a lot so I don't have to start with the definition of a BTU and work up from there

I have no problem with HOs stopping by here with the basic of questions. That's a big step, and it helps support this great site! I doubt any of us pros would have this great forum without the $$s from the "non pro" visitors.

It also furthers the "word" of radiant, hydronic, and steam heat to the novice homeowners, which translate into more "up to bats" for the industry in general.

At times it gets challanging to answer the same basic questions over and over, but after all that's what good teachers do!

I, personally feel there is a place for HO labor in just about any radiant project. How much, and how far they get into the install depends on their "knowingness" and compentence with the tools needed for the installation. Every owner is different, of course.

I have worked with HOs that have great mechanical skills. More so here in rural Missouri, than Park City, Utah :)I have learned a bunch working with machinest, welders, cabinet makers, the list goes on.

I think it should be understood that gas, electricity, venting, and combustion need to be checked off by a trained, experienced pro.

Next question

hot rod

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Firedragon_4

I guess more importantly

is that if everyone in the society was doing his or her job as well as they could we wouldn't have outsourcing to foreign countries and would all be doing okay, JMO!

Every man to his own trade. Yeah, I'll change a fixture or re-wire a switch, have put in more than one flush valve, and even built my own last three computers and web-site.

BUT, my service board was put in by a licensed electrician, my half-bath was put in by a licensed plumber and my computer guy is a personal friend he sells me the parts and helps me do it, so it's all in the mix.

I also believe that in states where a license is needed to do something that the equipment should not be allowed to be purchased for sale in a hardware store or even the 'airplane hangers'.

DanHolohan

Thank, HR.

"I doubt any of us pros would have this great forum without the $$s from the 'non-pro' visitors."

Many pros who visit here don't realize how true this is.

jerry scharf_3

I'm in the gray zone

John,

I don't install systems for a living, but heating systems are part of a larger type of work I do. I think this is a great thread to start, and I'll add my input. I do have a combustion analyzer that I use whenever I'm around something that burns.

First, you are right to sense there has been at times a certain hostility shown toward homeowners. I think Scott talked about some of why that is. It's not admirable and it's not everyone, but it does detract from the board.

I'll pick on physicists, since that was my training. This is a true story told by one of my professors. He was travelling in Bavaria and met a carpenter. In the course of conversation, it came up he was studying physics. The man's response was "Oh, so you're not so smart." Stunned, he asked why he thought this. "Heisenberg is supposed to be a really smart physicist. I work at the university he teaches at. He wanted a heavy door installed so his office would be quieter. I tried to explain that it wouldn't do any good because the walls were too thin. He didn't care and made me put in the heavy door anyway. Not too smart!"

This is all to say that your comment that you are well educated means we should trust you does not hold water for me. I don't want Hot Rod designing my computer chips any more than I want a chip designer installing my heating system.

Also, how the question gets posed makes a huge difference. If you post that you have a system and can't get the XYZ combustion reading to manufacturer's spec, I'll be that no one will ask if you're a HO. If you say that you want to change the combustion on your boiler, expect a different response.

So the question is how can you show that you are someone who can be trusted not to kill yourself and/or others? This is not a rhetorical question.

jerry

hr

hey, hey, hey, Jerry



I've worked will all kinds of chips, even some chimps and a lot of chumps!

Here is a picture of my drill press, notice wood, copper, steel, aluminum,and even titanium chips

Send me some silicone all I'll give you some computer chips to behold.

hot rod

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Weezbo

Hello....*~/:)

That is a very clear perception that you have made clear .

sometimes it is difficult to see ourselves as others see us,and often it is awakening to hear it expressed with out any hidden undertone.To be sure sarcasm or ridicule doesnt help everyone the same way especially when it comes along undeservedly out of lack of a larger perspective...Quite often in our lives the very thing that we see in others is the very minor technicalities we realize reside in ourselves.

Mike Reavis_2

Allright, I'll bite.

What question would you like answered?

Mike

gasfolk

Yes, I'm JAHO too. And when a simple paint job (removing wallpaper and paneling) revealed absolutely illegal and dangerous wiring (spider webs of buried splices in channels carved in the plaster in multiple rooms), ungrounded air-splices in metal-clad cable, and structural hazards (four second-floor joists *4 in a row* cut 3/4 of the way through for a drain), all done by a now-dead, previous owner (a truly nice guy with advanced degrees)...and $100,000 later, well, we'll be paying for his work for the next 25 years.

Many jobs I do feel comfortable doing, and The Wall really helps me to figure out the complexity of these issues, when special equipment and training are warranted, when to punt, and what questions to ask to be sure the tradespeople who come by are up to speed.

Thanks to The Wall!

gf

Unknown

Absolutely

I encourage installers of any type, new or old, to refresh themselves with the part of the fuel code that starts with "Qualified Agency".

If you fit, carry on. If you don't fit, the liability is still all yours. It's pretty clear, and it's the part of the code that is the MOST overlooked.

Ask your insurance agent about it.

Call a pro, if you don't fit, even if you bought the equipment yourself.

Noel Murdough

Slant/Fin Corp.

billygoat22

Well that questions been pretty well picked over. You say "engineer" or "architect" on some sites and there WILL be an attack.
I don't know you from Adam, so answering questions would follow a worst case (least qualified) scenerio. I've done a/c for one guy that built his own house, some of the furniture and he had a hemi-powered car in the garage he restored.
On the other hand I started a new heat pump, checked the airflow and found it at 1200 cfm (hi)on a 2 ton condensor, so I set it on low, which still had 900 cfm. The engineer told me he KNEW this stuff and a/c was always hi speed. "I don't care what Trane says in their chart"

Bob Eh?_2

That is largely what brought me here.....

My current home was spec built by a GC who to this day enjoys a good reputation.... and yet I could write a book on similar "features" the finished product contained. The various inspectors didn't seem to give a D... so I ponied up for a copy of the relevant codes and did an inspection based on that. Thank heavens I had taken pictures all along the way and documented my conversations about things I thought were not right from day 1.

Between dumping all the code issues on the inspectors complete with "8x10 colour glossies", holdback (There was a substantial one due based upon an occupancy permit), and a few clauses in the contract I was able to get most of them fixed. It still would cost about another 35K to resolve the balance.

Judging from the press, the sometimes tragic attempts by government to "fix" the problems, first hand converstations, and the threads in contractor forums I conclude that may be the norm in the industry and that consumers feel that price certianly has little to do with recieving value. It doesn't help that some of the most stunning questions are asked by people who claim to be contractors!

This time I figure that if I am going to have the stress I would hire an onsite superintendant that has the evidence that he is truly a craftsman and work with him to assemble the rest of the troops with a similar attitude. Thank heaven I have the time to do this as it was a struggle right from the footings (We are blessed with soil conditions that dictated "Engineering Required") to the gables to get an actual design that made any sense and met code requirements. Each element has been required a similar process but it meant that we could actually determine if the contractors we talked to for each element were actually competant as opposed to great politians!

I can certianly see the other side of the coin where many might not have invested the energy to find out enough about the problem to pose a sensible question with enough information to define the problem. In my field I either move along to the next thread or spend the time to try and explain what they are getting into. It just isn't worth the effort to type "get help" and leave it at that (I doubt they listen anyway).

Some of you take a similar approach, provide references as to essential reading, and even examples (No baggage included/No personal shots, just the facts maam). It gets fairly obvious that these people have the attitude that you have to be part of the solution if you ever hope to improve the way things work.

I constantly see contractor forum threads that say "the biggest obstacle is getting the client's level of knowledge up to a level where they can see why they may have a better proposal"..... (Let's assume that the architect/Engineer/marketing/News community isn't for the most part getting this done for you....). Has it ever occurred to you that every one who you help is more likely to appreciate why they need contractors and should choose to spend their money on the good guys (let alone have a fighting chance of identifying one)? He may even be able to talk to his friends and point them in the same direction! Wouldn't that be called "prequalifying" if you did it?

Isn't this the basis of "word of mouth" advertising? It doesn't get better than that!

Bob

bob_44

Eubonics

Please forgive me, I thought a HO was a PRO!

Tony_23

Good one Bob

jim_57

PRO's (&cons)

> mess with a burner assembly and the CO can go way

> up, that’s why brand new appliances can have bad

> co reading - cause it gets jostled out of

> adjustment in shipping, and if you don’t have a

> CO tester to check it, how ya gona know? so i

> don’t like to advise people on burner

> service

>

> as for live experience - well i'd

> rather learn from others experience, "experience"

> means, that you or the customer got hurt -

> physically or monetarily, so screw "experience" -

> i was never afraid to ask another professional so

> that i did it right the first time

jim_57

PRO's (&cons)

I've worked in Tech Support for a heating system manufacturer for a few years, been in the trade for over 35, and some of the "technicians" I speak with scare me as much as the homeowners who call. Sometimes more. The difference is that the technician is being paid. How much trust can you put in someone who either doesn't have the proper test equipment to set up or troubleshoot a system or who has it but doesn't want to dig through the pile of junk in his van to get it. Then does he know how to properly test. I know that there are some things the average homeowner shouldn't tackle, but when the HO knows and tells me what the PRO did or didn't do (and I know hes right), it doesn't say much or maybe speaks volumes about the lack of training that a lot of today's technicians have.

It also seems to me that some of the larger oil companies are only interested in having one specialist at each location to work on certain "specialized" equipment. I used to work for one of them, also worked for some small ones including my own. Am I on the soap box yet?

I have to bite my tongue too many times when the HO who has just had his burner serviced calls and says the system worked fine until the last service or e-mails digital pix of his installation that's been giving fits for the past 5 years and no one can figure out why. PRO, read the installation manual and do what it says, duh.

Dan, George, Alan, you've probably all heard this before. In today's technology and the sites that you have, homeowners seem to be learning faster than the service people they have relied on to serve them. Hey, there's a thought...service, serve, get it?

We as an industry have to do more than just try to keep selling equipment or fuel. Carol Fey has it right when she says we're supposed to be in the comfort business. Listen to the homeowner about their needs and concerns, then make a plan to fulfill them if at all possible in a way that is safe and efficient.

Sorry this is so long and I hope I haven't stepped on too many toes but it's something that really bugs me.

hydronicsmike

Homeowners beware...

There are a number of individuals who like to help and offer solutions and aswers to questions. But how and when do you know if any advice you get for free over an online forum is good and for real? you probably can't ever ensure it.

A while ago I came across a post on here where a couple of really great individuals have conducted a test:

Water Heater Blast!!

Sadly enough, this kind of thing has happened in the field also and it could have been someone looking at a few drips of water coming out of "this funny looking think on the side of the tank" and plugged it off because someone said it's ok to do so. Accidents happen and bad advise can be given. I agree when guys like Hot Rod, my good friend Chuck Shaw and many others prefer to answer easy and simple questions but refer you to a "professional" for potentially dangerous questions. Especially if it can save lifes and families.

In the end, it is always up to you what you want to believe or if you like to be safe and talk to an actual person standing in front of you who is a professional.

Myself, I am a hydronics guy. I have had troubles with my car before and did seek friendly consultation from a mechanic who was very willing to help and give advice. Me, I was the hydronics guy, who has worked with tools before, i thought i can just do what I was recommended but found out the hard way that I could have saved lots of time if I had have let the mechanic just do the job, cause in the end it cost me the same anyways as he finished the job for me when I got stuck on this project that didn't seem like rocket science at the time.

I hope I am making at least a little bit of sense here.

Mike

JCD

HO vs PRO

I am not sure if a new string should be started for my question. The topic of this string HO vs PRO. Isn’t that a little adversarial to begin with? I do not want to argue with whomever I hire, I want to work with them, I'm hoping I'll get better work done and that is why I come to this site.

As I first read this string, I thought good, maybe I'll read something that can help me. Some rants on this string OK - I can accept that, bakers complain about the price of flour, printers about ink and my dentist about how much I do or rather don't floss.
Constantin wrote : However, most HO's lack the experience and testing equipment to set systems up to safely combust, etc. and I agree. I do realize that and I would not attempt anything in that manner. Yes I have wired in some outlets, but to go into the service box - stop. As Harry Callahan said at the end of the first Dirty Harry movie, "A man’s just gotta know his limitations! And so setting the flame on the burner, nope. Hot Rod wrote on July 30, 2005 11:15 AM more of what I wanted to see.

OK- Here is my dilemma: I have a twenty four year old Valiant boiler. I, and my wife, love the hot water heat and the CIR's. The boiler, when we moved in was 84 percent AFUE efficient. Then the Honeywell box went out, $400. Then last year, the dampener went out. $400 to fix, $150 to disable. At the time I said disable it, knowing well that efficiency would suffer. I asked about the boiler and the tech, from a very reputable local firm said that I should fix the dampener and the boiler would be back at 84 percent efficiency which he said was "really quite good". I’ve wondered about replacing it with a condensing boiler as the water temp never gets over 127 degrees. (I have checked on many times; even when it was -35 for several days last winter here in Minnesota. I really have to believe the boiler is oversized.) I ask the tech about putting in a condensing boiler and he says "You know those things put out acid, don't you? Why would you want that in your house?"

OK. After that I checked the wall for a pro in the MPLS/St.Paul area. Nothing. Here is one HO'ers dilemma. I asked a tech, a pro and I got back the reply above. I do not believe that 84 percent is that great. With a reply like that I do somewhat question the tech. (And I should say that the first guy, same company, who serviced the boiler was pleasant and knowledgeable, a real pro. I wished I had asked him. )
I believe in the advice given here, fix the envelope first, and so on. I would like to put in some under floor heating as the basement is unfinished, and the ceiling is open down there. Living here in St. Paul, you might guess who I’ll lean to for that. I do not have a ton of cash, so I must use what I have got wisely. If you guys were in my shoes, you would………..

Constantin

... contact the manufacturers

If the FAP listings do you no good, try calling up HTP, NTI, Viessmann, etc. and asking them for local contractors that they have trained. Forget about the ignorant technician and have a system specified to get installed whenever the current system lets go.

If the current design conditions only call for 125°F hot water on the supply side, you are perfectly positioned for either gas or oil condensing appliances. If you have cast iron drains, simply let the condensate drain through a bed of marble chips or eqv. before entering the drain. Problem solved.

Unknown

Mike, you make good points, but every word you said can apply to a "pro" in person just as easily as a person on a forum. I'm sure you've seen your share of hack jobs like we all have. A license to sweat pipe does not guarantee compentance. There are many shining examples of true, dedicated, intelligent and sincere professionals on this forum. You can tell, because there are hundreds of posts from most of them continually reiterating exactly how much they really know. Out in the real world, it's not so cut and dry. Frankly, I think most people would be better off at least starting with advice given from those on this forum on specifics and *at least* using it to verify their local pro is competant if a fix is out of their league.

Add to that the tendency for people to just leap on the "find a pro" chorus for everything, even stuff that really doesn't need one, and it just waters down the whole idea of a place like this in a first place, doesn't it?

Frankly, I think it's best to give the advice, and say so when something seems to be in a questionable area. A HO can screw down quik trak just as well as anyone else and telling them what brand of screw gun to use doesn't hurt anyone. But was a load calc done? Who is doing the boiler? Those are the kinds of follow ups to ask. Draw the lines where the lines need to be drawn. That is what responsible professionals do, if they are interested in helping people, IMHO. The site is "heatinghelp.com", not "heatingprochat.com", right?

Ed Lentz

I'm a HO

I confess I haven't read all the messages here. I am a HO and I do alot of my own stuff around the house from elec. to plumbing. I am a handy guy of sorts. I hold no degrees, I just have enough sense to figure out where my limits are. I installed a radiant floor system last year with the oversight of a boiler installer/distributor for our area, I got it inspected and was told it looked good for a HO install. It has been without problem so far. I thank all the PRos here for their help to me and all the other HO's. It is refreshing to be able to "listen in" on you Pros' comments and to see some of the nightmares you guys get into! I install business phone systems and network cabling for a living. Many of my customers install their own wiring, I will give them advise when they ask. Then when they have problems (or if they do) I try to help. I feel that we all need to get our stuff done and have to make a living in the process. I am about to install a bathroom in an upstairs area. A plumber will do most of it. Like I said I try to know where my limits are. Well, that is my two cents. I will continue to lurk around and try to learn from you guys by osmosis if that's OK?

Thanks!
Ed

Tony_23

I like that

"heatingprochat.com"

has a ring to it

Thought along those same lines many a time. Almost let it drive ME away a couple of times. Glad I didn't let it, though.

Kal Row

at the end of the day...

There really are not enough of us to go around – cause if there were – most of us would be twiddling our thumbs most of the time – it’s feast or famine – so there has to be room for DIY’rs and gen contractors – its economics 101 – we don’t have a union monopoly on the trade – get over it – just try to keep DIY’ers from hurting themselves

hydronicsmike

Rob...

...you are right. This (heatinghelp.com) place is what it is for the people who come here.

I fully agree that there are some things that anyone can do. The problem just is that not everyone gets heatlosses done and boilers installed by professionals. I guess the guys I am mostly worried about are the guys who do it all themselves and then it doesn't work and possibly even create a thread to their own person or family.

Again, I agree with you and no matter what we try to do, there will always be the guys who will want to do it all themselves. All we can do is caution them.

Thanks Bro (Rob)

Mike

hydronicsmike

get over it – just try to keep DIY’ers from hurting themselves

well said man!

Steve Ebels_3

Here's the cold hard facts Mr Barnes et al

Fact #1. The title of Homeowner or Pro has little, if any bearing on the quality of the work performed.

Fact #2. A license means nothing. It's just a little piece of paper that says a person passed a test. I've seen many horrible jobs (crimes is maybe a better word) that were perpetrated by individuals who hold a license.

Fact #3. A person, HO or Pro with great skills, is still able to do a lousy job because of a lack of capital. That capital can be cash, time or both.

Fact #4. I'll be the first to admit that everyone makes mistakes, everyone gets tired and everyone has an "off" day. You don't get the best a person is capable of 100% of the time. It's not humanly possible and as far as I know the Good Lord retired from the radiant heating business after He created the sun. So, seeing He's out of the business all that's left is us.

Fact #5. The single thing that has the most bearing on the quality of work done is the attitude and personality of the individual doing the work. He/she has to CARE about what they do, be it for themselves or someone else. If the person cares he/she will have the right equipment and tools. If the person cares, they will have taken the time and spent the money to be properly trained. If the person cares, they will realize that risking their health, life or property is not worth saving some $$.$$. If a person truly cares they will back off when they realize that they don't understand all they think they know about something and be humble enough to admit it.
If the person doing the work is a Pro, the one thing that must underpin all their actions is that they are there to SERVE NOT BE SERVED. They must realize each step of the job and each minute of the service call that they have an obligation to give their best to every customer be that a $60 service or a $50,000 install. A good Pro will be the first to say "I don't know, I'll have to find out".

So my humble advice to all the HO's who read this little tome would be as follows.
Try to speak directly to the person doing your work be it service or installation. It's tough in today's world but it can be done. The fancy shmancy salesman can promise you the moon but it's the guy turning the wrenchs that will ultimately determine the outcome of your job. Talk to him, is he a likable sort, does he seem arrogant, does he seem overly friendly, too talkative, too shy, etc. The first thing you want to get a handle on is the persons depth of character and integrity. If he has that, it's likely he will do you right.