radiant & laminate flooring

sws2_2

No opinions???

sws2_2

Any experience with installing laminate flooring ( such as Pergo)directly over an above-floor radiant job. May use quik-trac or other similar method. How is heat distribution, striping, noise, etc. What was your max. floor temp?

Dave Yates (PAH)

no problems here

We've installed radiant utilizing above floor systems where laminate flooring (including Pergo) has been installed. We design our systems to operate at the lowest temperatures possible and utilize design programs that are manufacturer specific to the system we're using on that job site.

We have one customer whose in-floor radiant system (not installed by us!) has no mixing to regulate the floor temperatures. She has Pergo on concrete & although the flooring gets hot, it has not shown any signs of damage. One of our first calls to her home was for an overheat situation where the circ relay stuck.

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hr

The key

to any sucessful flooring install is... You need to watch the operating temperatures. This information, of course, would start with a heatloss calc and design. This calculation will tell you the amount of heat you need to deliver to the space.

More importantly it will tell you what temperatures are needed to meet this load. For radiant floors generally we limit the SURFACE temperature to 83-85°. The loss of the room and the R value of the floor covering will tell you what temperature supply water you need to accomplish that, or what temperatures that flooring material will need to operate at!

As you know there are a wide selection of engineered and laminate products on the market. Not created equally

In my opinion an ideal radiant wood covering would be an engineered wood product built up with layers of hardwood. Cheaper brands use a soft ply or wafer core with a thin laminate or "picture" of hardwood on top. Personally I would shy away from these from a radiant as well as a flooring longevity issue.

A great place to get radiant flooring info is www.launstein.com They do a lot of actual testing on flooing products and will give you honest, straight answers.

I'm not sure you can completly eliminate stripping without tube 3" on center Transfer plates help, these are built into the panels you mentioned. Constant circulation helps. Floor build up thickness and floor coverings coverings make a difference. A simple throw rug over a wood floor will cause the heat to spread more evenly, than bare hardwood. Gypcrete jobs do a nice job of spreading the heat across the surface evenly. Transfer plates below the subfloor spread the heat a bit more evenly, I feel.

The only real serious stripe issues I have seen are systems with real wide, say 16" on center applications. Use transfer plates, constant circ, tube spacing in the 8 - 12" spacing, acceptable loop lengths, and tight delta t in the loops. Again, all this info will be spelled out in a good design calc. Find a contractor or designer knowledgable in radiant design. A handful of designers hang around this list. Engage one of them to get you a good "road map" to sucess for your system. Best to start with a good deasign than to try to modify down the road. Happy heating!

hot rod

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sws2_2

thanks

Thanks for those posts. I agree with getting an accurate heat loss / design from a professional. Do it right the first time. I think (after reading various posts)that it would be difficult to heat the area completely with radiant. It is a 600 sq. ft "great room" (living / kitchen / dining)with a 19' cathedral ceiling with a balcony to 2nd floor rooms. I already have hydro-air heat. My thoughts were to have radiant installed as a primary heat with the hyrdo coming on to assist on design days (-1 degree area) by using a 2-stage stat set back a few degrees. Floor is already over 2" thick and I still have to install the finished floor, probably Pergo-type. any / all suggestions will be appreciated. I would like to know some options before consulting contractors. Thanks again

hr

I'd go one step

further, and use a tekmar 2 stage stat WITH a floor sensor. This would give you the ability to limit the temperature at the floor, regardless of air temperature. A good way to protect the flooring, regardless of the load.

I like to insert these sensors in a well for easy removal and replacement. Even tekmar sensors fail. Sometimes

For high traffic areas I'd like to see you upgrade beyond the P brand and get a more "heavy duty" product.

I have seen a Wilsonart product completely submereged in water at a home builders show. That would be my choice for bath or kitchen areas.

hot rod

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sws2_2

What is purpose of a floor sensor? Wouldnt proper design / mixing insure proper floor temp?/ What would be a max floor temp desiredon on an above-floor system with laminate? Thanks

hr

Floor sensors

give you another degree of control, pun intended. You could chose to either program a "not to exceed" temperature to assure you protect the flooring, or sometimes we program the opposite, not to go below temperature. This we use in tiled baths to assure the floor never "feels" cold. It can assure some warmth even in AC conditions.

The exact numbers you program will be decided by the actual job and homeowner comfort zone

With any flooring, the manufactures will have a, not to exceed temperature. Generally SURFACE temperature on a residential floor will not exceed that 83-85°. Both for owner comfort,(skin temperatures and manufactures comfort Although many would argue that sun drenched floor see temperatures in excess of this.

As important, is how hot you will drive the temperature at the bottom of that flooring. Keep in mind even thin flooring will have an R value. Knowing the required supply temperatue, which the load and design will tell you, is key. There is a temperature number at the bottom of the flooring that will make the manufacture squirm

I feel that no system in contact with wood or sheetrock should see bottom temperatures, for extended periods, over 140°. This seems to be the number that the Wood Resources labs are comfortable with for plywoods, engineered and even solid milled lumber, as well as the gypsum folks, both sheetrock and gyp floors.

I would guess your system should not need temperatures anywhere near that! But would extended 100° be acceptable to Pergo at the bottom surface. 120? What about 95°? This is what the design, and the floor manufacture have to agree on.

With temperature sensitive laminates, I would use the best transfer methods, thick extruded plates, and the lowest possible supply temperatures to "meet the load" You should be able to get there comfortably, but only after doing the numbers could you prove that to me. And the folks warranting the flooring

High temperatures under wood floors are the typical "problem floor" jobs we see posted here. Shrinking, panelization (sp) gapping are byproducts of a combo of temperature and humidity or moisture content. Even with a constant humidty level, and acclimated installation conditions, excessive temperatures will cause problems in wood flooring products, according the the flooring experts I have talked with. Slow and low with constant circ for the best chances of troublefreeness. How about that word!

hot rod

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