We need a New York State Plumbing License-Badly!

REF

You are 100% right! We don't even have a heating license in Washington County. I am starting to think that we should work in our county first, however, what happens when we want to work in Warren, or Saratoga, or Dutchess,etc.etc.etc. It seems ridiculous to have such a cumbersome system. I'll take what I can get though. Again, I agree a license doesn't perdict quality. Personally I believe it at least gives the contractor some of the training to be able to do good work.

Thanks again,

REF

REF

New York State Plumbing License

To all concerned:
It is high time to get a New York State Plumbing License. If you haven't seen the plumbing picture post go look. I can rest my case after that nonsense. I am working with our local state senators office to get this problem resolved. If you would like to help in this effort please let me know. A petition from true plumbers would be a great start. This will really help our industry and all effected by it. We need to protect our craft. There are a lot of factors involved, however, I am positive we can get this problem resolved.


Respectfully,

Richard Fox
Hometown Heating and Cooling.

Yep...We plumb too. We follow Vermont State Code and are licensed through Vermont.

Pat K

Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

hvac64

REF, Im in Mass. We have no real HVAC code or licensing......just subject to local bldg. inspectors interpretation.( disgraceful really )

I find it hard to believe the state of NY has no plumbing licenses. I think licensing levels the playing feild for all legit. contractors. Unfortunatley, the hacks will keepa hackin.

Ken_8

I am in

NJ. There is no heating contractor license, and the plumbers aren't willing to yield on the venue thay already have no knowledge of.

It is tragic, detrimantal to the population, and the result of 50 years of people with a last name ending in a vowel controlling the legislature. Something that willl not change for another 50. It is called "guild" of exclusion.

Politics as usual is what I call it...


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singh

count me in!

Pat K

But you think that these same people should be allowed to license people?

All a license scheme does is give the Govt. another cut of your earnings.

Al Corelli

Plumbing Licences in NY

Licences in Ny are given at the county level.

We are licenced in Westchester County.

Even with a county license, some localities require very different things.

One locality requires lead pans for showers, while most others will allow vinyl. Some allow PVC while others require copper and frown on no-hub.

It really is a joke. The "Old Boy" network will allow large contractors to use PVC, while us "regular guys" have to abide by the rules.
I recently worked in a newer house that was done in PVC. The lady of the house wanted an additional powder room in the basement. Guess what? We had to do it in copper to meet code.

No sour grapes, but it sure does suck sometimes.

LESS government involvement. As long as it passes NY state plumbing code, it should be accepted.

Sorry for the mini-rant.

Darin Cook_3

New York has a mish mash of licensing

Further Upstate in the Capital District, plumbing licenses are issued by the locality or city. Once you get outside the populated areas there is nothing to hold the unscrupulous contractor in check. One building permit covers it all and you can imagine who is or isn't looking at your work. There should be one statewide test to obtain your plumbing license. Everyone would then play out of the same rule book.








Darin

scott75

I thought PA was the only state that didn't require a License. I am originally from MA (although I wasn't an AC tech there) and knew that they need a license for anything. When I lived in MD, I knew they need a license for anything. My boss here in PA came from FL, they need a license for anything. In PA, anything goes. I thought we were the only state that didn't have it. Does NY state have license for electricians, oil burners, AC, ect?

REF

This shouldn't stop here.

All New York contractors can do something. Call or email your local state representative and let us get the ball rolling. We need a state license. If Vermont can get it done, so can New York. It will take some time, however; the license will help future generations of plumbers and hvac technicians in our great state.

As far as I know there is no license for hvac, oil burners, and even electricians. We all can move the ball together. The solution will come with pride to our industry. One state license-simple.

Respectfully,

Richard Fox

Firedragon_4

I've been involved in

licensing and code issues since 1975 and all I can say is it works in MA and many other states. To me, it doesn't speak well for state as populous as PA and NY not to be licensed.

I'm from the oil side of things although I carry several other licenses it amazes me that the #1 and #2 states for oil burning have no 'uniform' license and inspection procedure. Further, that there are is no 'uniform' licensing of plumbers is even more so, JMO!

If I can be of assistance in supplying data and info on how we do it in MA and most of New England please contact me, FACT!

www.firedragonent.com

BTW, I know many will freak out over this about raising wages, etc. But, since a very recent trip to NYC and LI and the stories I was told about wages and where they are going (up, up, up) it's at least time to have some way to honestly pay for what you get, again JMO!

Dave Yates (PAH)

Ken

I too once believed licensing heating (especially hydronics) and A/C would be wise. However, having now seen the debacle that is our newly established State-wide Uninformed Code, I'd sooner they stay the hell out of my business. All we've seen to date, is a further intrusion into our wallets while the process of obtaining permits has 90-minutes as the norm & a must-appear-in-person rule for the lone "Active-licensed" Master Plumber allowed to pick up said permit.

Meanwhile, the hacks and trunk-slammers are given a wink and a nod. So, we get extra costs, hassles and lost revenues while having to deal with rude, unfriendly and (in many cases) code officials who will only take calls or make themselves available at odd hours - like one we have that is "in" between 6:30 & 7:30 AM. You need him, leave a message & sometimes he calls back, although that's a rarity.

Now, add to the vagaries of our new Uninformed Code the odd exceptions for requiring permits. Let's take the HVAC stuff as a prime example. For starters, the inspectors now crossing over into this new territory are the same guys who we dealt with on the plumbing side. They had no training as plumbers & know even less about HVAC. You can have them for NJ as far as I'm concerned.

But, here's something one hell of alot worse. If I come to your home or business and replace any HVAC equipment or an entire system while simply installing the same BTU sizes - no permit & no inspection needed! However, if I do the right thing and calculate the actual heat loss/gain because the home has obviously had insulation and/or windows and/or any number of other improvements designed to lower the bills - I now must provide a Manual-J (or other recognized program) and obtain a permit and then wait around for the inspector to show up after we're finished so that someone who had no clue as to what my Manual-J report said, much less if I'd input any correct info into the program, and has even less of a clue about Manual-D duct sizing or - God forbid he come across one of our radiant installations - or anything hydronic because he won't know what it is or what it's supposed to be doing. I guarantee you there is not a single inspector within my area that could come to one of our hydronic radiant installations and walk me through its operation. If you can't at least decipher what it is you're staring at, you have no business being an inspector.

No thanks. I've concluded we don't need the business interruption we've already experienced and, besides which, it turns out there isn't any real interest in something noble like protecting the health of the citizens within the area of influence - it's simply a revenue generator and trigger for property reasessments. If they want my respect and cooperation, they need to correct that stupid reward for doing the work in a half-fast manner, give me a professional inspector who is adequately trained - before being set loose - and begin going after the knuckleheads who work without permits and/or licenses (only plumbing to date here, but they're hammering those with licenses while ignoring all others doing work without a license or permit - I wouldn't expect that to change for other licenced trades).

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Firedragon_4

Dave,

with all due repect don't knock the system, knock the management of it. Good news is, you can fight to get it changed.

We in Ma have done this on several occasions with all of the Licensing Boards and although NO system is purfuct, I'd still rather have what we have then the Wild, Wild West, JMO!

Dave Yates (PAH)

No I can't George

There is no one to appeal to - I checked. No checks or balances for reporting abuses - I checked. You want to affect a positive change - plan on a minimum of two-years mired in political goop and another two years before it makes it into a revision. No thanks pal, I've got better things to do - like go fishing.

Don't knock the system? Hell, it's already broken. It is a bona-fida mess and they're "deputizing" hordes of inspectors who have no prior training and giving them two years to learn the code! It took em eight years to pass this mess & you'd think that somewhere along the way, they'd have thought about the fact that there are nowhere near enough inspectors, much less any which are trained. So, they must have figured they'd worry about that AFTER passing the State-wide code! Now maybe I'm a cynic, but that tells me they weren't exactly worried about the health of the citizens so much as they were contemplating revenue streams.

We already have the Wild, Wild, West. Problem is, the Sheriffs aren't looking to enforce the laws across all of the citizenry. Not one single plumbing inspection department in any of our Townships, Boroughs or Cities has so much as one single record of fining or prosecuting anyone for working without a license or permit. And, I will add that they have known in many cases who & where the work was done. Everyone, and I mean everyone, who chooses to thumb their collective noses at the codes, licensing and permits is getting a free ride. While I'm supposed to obtain a permit to install a water heater ($75.00)and wait around for an inspection that doesn't occur because the inspectors tell us they're too busy to inspect waster heater installations (same goes for water services), the folks shopping at the big-box DIY centers are completely free to circumvent the requirement professionals-only must adhere to? Bull feathers! It'll be a cold day in hell when you see me obtaining a water heater permit & I'll wager I'll win in court when I take em there to fight my fine or loss of license. It's called discrimination George. An ugly term, but one that applies.

I sit on a plumbing board in my own Township. I was appointed without being asked and, as it turned out, I'd been a member for most of a year without knowing it. I bumped into a Township Supervisor at the big-box DIY center, (who was picking up products for which I would need to obtain a permit to install & noted he felt he didn't need a permit - said permits were nonsense in his opinion!) who congratulated me for volunteering. For what, I asked. That was my notification.

That was several years ago. How many times have we met as a board? Not once, although I've suggested we should on numerous occasions.

I did get a call - once - about a plumber from another City who had plumbed an entire branch-bank without a permit or an inspection and that the builder had cooperated with the plumbing contractor in their combined effort to circumvent the permitting process. The Township decided it wasn't worth the hassle of prosecuting either of them. The plumber even refused to pay for a permit - after the fact. I was asked for an opinion on what to do. As I told them, if you don't prosecute both of these characters, don't ever ask me to help prosecute anyone else in the future. I also pointed out that they were setting a legal precedent and would never be able to prosecute another licensed plumbing contractor if that individual discovered they let these jokers get a free ride. They did nothing to either contractor except to tell the plumbing contractor he couldn't obtain a plumbing license. He'd already said he would return to work in our Township anytime he felt like it and had no intention of obtaining a license or permit! Free ride.

Want a few more exceptions to permits and inspections? If I replace a bathroom and place the fixtures where they once were - no permit or inspection required. But, wait a minute, even though this new code was adopted, many of our inspectors think they can simply ignore that and require permits/inspections WITHOUT passing an ordinance amending the newly adopted code.

The one thing our new code was supposed to address, were the odd variances between boundaries. They did not & instead, allowed all of the oddities to remain. Thanks for nothing.

One of the new independent inspectors who works free-lance for various municipalities freely admitted the test for becoming a plumbing inspector in PA is a joke. He noted that anyone could study the code book for about one week and pass muster.

All that changed with the new code were much greater hassles for obtaining permits and a fee-structure that more than increased permit costs by 150%. For the added inconviences , lost productive time and increased permit fees (for which we've been losing work to unlicensed hacks who know they can get away with working outside the rules), we are not receiving professional services.

Sorry George, but we'll have to agree to disagree.


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Firedragon_4

I see and

respect your point and I'm glad you explained it thoroughly. In fact, it makes a great example for those who do want to try to bring change in their own respective states of how not to do it.

Thanks Dave!

Dan Goodridge

You know I kind of take offense to that:( My family comes from Italy. They have fought and died in three wars for this country. Here in Massachusetts most of the govt is Irish. I wouldnt post saying the Irish congressman are holding up progress. That kind of thinking does no good.

> NJ. There is no heating contractor license, and

> the plumbers aren't willing to yield on the venue

> thay already have no knowledge of.

>

> It is

> tragic, detrimantal to the population, and the

> result of 50 years of people with a last name

> ending in a vowel controlling the legislature.

> Something that willl not change for another 50.

> It is called "guild" of exclusion.

>

> Politics

> as usual is what I call it...

>

> _A

> HREF="http://www.heatinghelp.com/getListed.cfm?id=

> 68&Step=30"_To Learn More About This

> Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in

> "Find A Professional"_/A_

REF

Dave your point is well taken, however, the plumbing inspector in Vermont is a Master plumber. He is great to deal with, and extremely fair if you play by the rules. This is a great chance in NY to do it right. If you would help us we would greatly appreciate it.

Here is my personal email- foxco7@adelphia.net

I will keep you posted. Your input could make a huge difference.

As always

Respectfully,

Richard Fox

REF

In Washington County there is nothing available. I have tried to find anything and found nothing. Wouldn't it be great to have one source. Hope we can count on your assistance in developing this program.

Thanks for your input..

Respectfully,

REF

REF

Email me and I will keep all interested posted

Here is my personal address:

foxco7@adelphia.net

I will put out updates to all emailers..

Thank you..

REF

REF

Sometimes

Blame is misdirected..I am second generation American. (Military Veteran and proud.) It doesn't matter where you are from that is what has made, and makes this country great.

Respectfully,

REF

Jim_47

licensing

In Dutchess County NY the license is by city or town. And... AND you have to hold two Licences per municipality!
A plumbing Licence and a Heating installation License. I had a heating License in one of these towns and gave it up!
The cost for 3 fuels heating License went from $75 to $450 !!
for the priviledge of doing business in their town! I saved the $450 and did not loose any income to date. Actually I now hear a lot of others have also dropped theirs as well.
Home Cheppo selling carloads of plumbing stuff, everyone went do-it-yo-self around here.

One of my boys was in a supply house recently and the guy at the counter would not sell an oil boiler to a guy off the street unless the guy could produce a liability policy. He told my son it provides at least one layer of insullation between them and the homeowner.

Recently, our county started to organize discussions about licensing electrical contractors. one large part of the discussion is who will be grandfathered in and who would not. Must have X years experience to be grandfatherd in. So this means some families in that trade will be penalized because of a line in the sand????
And who is going to enforce the installs and inspections? THe turmoil over the electrical licensing is interesting to watch.

Al Corelli

Excellent!

Well Put Dave~!!!!!!!

Al Corelli

Oh Boy

I have found that there are dirtbags in ALL nationalities. But you have to always be "the better man" and look at the good in people. I just choose not to deal with dirtbags. Can't waste my time with them.

And my name ends in a vowel. I am not offended. If someone makes an observation in their area, and a group of people are "guild" members, or the majority of the people are of that said "group", well, that's just an observation. In another area, it is probably another "guild group" in charge of shenanigans.

We try to just roll with the punches.

Al Corelli

State license

New York is broken up like it is because the state is very diverse. Whatever inroads we make in a state license, there will still be the localities that will require independent inspections for their "special" requirements.

I say, leave it the way it is. Compete with the trunk-slammers by selling reliability and integrity. More legislation is NOT the way.

An electrician friend recently told me, Westchester County electrical inspections went from an "in-house" group of inspectors to an outside company. They hired on all the counties' inspectors. Inspections went from 40-100 dollars for a whole house to 250 bucks a room (FOR INSPECTION!!!!!). Large houses are inspected at a rate of XX.00 dollars PER DEVICE. That's per switch, outlet, etc.

My buddy said that he is now priced even further away from the "trunk-slammers". No one in the municipality is doing anything about trying to catch the "bubba". They are just raping the legitimate contractor at each turn.

What you may think will work "in your neck of the woods" (no insult intended, I'd love to live/work upstate) will not work elswhere in the state. NYC will still be full of beurocracy, and each municipality will not want to lose the revenue and independence.

REF

Well

imagine if George Washington and his pals settled for the British bureaucracy. It is worth it to fix the problems with system. I am not naive to the working of NYC. We can work with their licensing, and we have already talked about the issue in a recent phone conversation with the local state representative. There are a lot of logistics here. It won't be easy, but then what is. Thanks for your post. I respect everyones opinions.

Again,

Respectfully,
Richard Fox

Dave Yates (PAH)

Richard

If my input would really help, let me know & I'll do whatever I can to assist in the endeavor. My hope will be that the efforts won't be in vain, but the reality will probably be that little good will come of the efforts - based strictly upon my 35-years of observation from the sidelines.

Being Fathers's day & all, this has been a day of reflection and celebration. When I stop to think about the most important job I've ever ben tasked to do - that of being a father - and the inherant risks and rewards that brings/brought - along with the awesome responsibility from which fathers do not flinch - no matter the hardships, I thought too about this thread and how sad it is that those who have been handed the mantle of responsibility have squandered that in so many ways that they can no longer be counted. Our "fathers" have wandered far afield of where we should be standing.

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Ken_8

Yes,

Thanks Dave for that one.

This week's byline for the local NJ rag I write for is: "How's 6"

The column will explain the danger in letting guys without licenses run 6" gas pipe through the middle of a school, but the urinal flushomoters can only be touched by a NJ Lincensed Mater Plumber.

Ever heard of a child being killed by a bad flushometer? How about a 6" gas leak?

Insanity runs rampant in NJ licensure laws.

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Empire_2

Buffalo, NY chimming in

I cannot tell you how much business I lose from people doing side work, or non-liscensed contractors in the city of Buffalo, NY. Here,...There is liscenses required and or permits or both required. The sourounding area's are only permit requirements. While I do not do business in Buff, because of the Political CRAP....This is exactly why I have not gone for my liscense in the Buff. The board of Gov. is run by actual contractors (Large) which is supposed to review my test scores and decide if they will except me. If I am A direct competitor, that explaines the delay in THIS CITY!. I try and do everythin to the letter of code and above, but in Buffalo, Only the connected get in. That is this cities problem. Be fortunate that your politicians dont need "ADULT SUPERVISION" and that is a direct quote from the NYS state control board. Buffalo does not have a WATER FRONT,..Ya wanna know WHY? Cause it will take a $2,000,000.00 dollar study to see if it will work!!!! Then it will have to be reviewed and then studied AGAIN! Sorry to vent guy's but I think Buffalo should not even border one of our great lakes because they may deside to drain it... They dont know why, but our local Gov. need's to put people to work to refill it because their origional plan was lost and it should have never been DRAINED. That's OK the tax payers will cover it................................
Signed P.O'ed in Buffalo, NY

REF

This is exactly why

we should have a state license. There will be issues with the cities, but they can be resolved. This is be worth the effort. It seems to me from a lot of these posts that maybe more of us should get into the political arena to level the field. Thanks again for your posts. I will keep everyone posted on progress.

Respectfully,
REF

Al Corelli

OK, let's get a state license.

Now who's gonna be able to compete with Bubba the trunkslammer.

SOMEONE has to go out and report these people.

Here in Beautiful New Rochelle, NY (Where our property taxes have just been raised AGAIN 30%), the plumbing inspector pays the garbage men (tax dollars) 50 bucks to report water heater installs, as well as ANY building material placed out for pickup. (God forbid poor Bubba leaves the old heater at the curb).

Yes, yes. We need plumbing Nazis.

LESS government involvement. Government cannot do anything correctly. No good can come from anything done by committee.

Dave Yates (PAH)

Sorry, not happening here

even when Bubba is turned in by name, address and the time he'll be doing the work so he can be caught red-handed. Our local codes departments have zero interest in catching or prosecuting Bubba.

Meanwhile, we spent the last two days trying, in vain, to get in touch with an inspector who - get this - is supposedly "open for business" from 6:30 to 8:00 AM (only). We've been calling and leaving messages & as my bride decided today - he's on the I'm calling once an hour until he calls back list. I am left wondering when, if ever, we'll be able to schedule the inspection.

In another code dept today, I had to appear in person and stand idly by while the gal held forth on a private phone call for ten minutes. Following that, she indicated I wasn't first and then waited on two guys who evidently were making their first foray into the permit quagmire. They'd been sitting of to the side waiting for her to quit yaking on the phone! She took another call while they stood there & finished the call (another five minutes) before dispatching them to paperwork hell. My turn! We no sooner started, then the phone rang & off she was taking care of that business - another five minutes that seemed to stretch into ten. Back to me & off with the paperwork to try finding the proper form. No luck, so it was time to deciper how much the permits would be. They turned out to be more than the total sum of our proposed work! Back to the window to collect the check and then my command performance - the signature on both permit apps. Can't do that by fax cause they want to see the Master Plumber in person. She doesn't know me from Adam, yet no ID was requested. Another phone call, which had me thinking maybe next time I'll dial in on my cell and tie up the phones until she completes my paperwork. Can't find the right forms, so I'm told another trip in to pick up the forms once processed will be necessary! No sweat babe, my time isn't worth anything at all.

Meanwhile, Bubba is missing out on all of this fun and getting a free ride.

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GaryDidier

Licensing

REF,
Here is my two bits on this. I feel your frustration. We compete with many unprincipled hacks who do crap work and many times we are called in to fix the problems.

I love living and working in Washington county. I moved here to raise a family. The only code followed by the county is the NY state code. It is generally not followed or enforced unless the local town has its own code and enforcement.

The town I formerly worked in (Huntington, L.I.) had a huge beurocracy set up for permits and licensing. Then the county decided we needed licensing through them also. The process to get permits would average 3 to 6 months and when approved was no guarantee that the inspector would not ask you to make additional changes. The inspector had the authority to overule the permit department and the engineers stamp on the plans! The whole thing became a huge revenue source for the town.

I always carried all the correct licenses and insurance. The last straw was when the county decided that the legit contractors had to pay additional fees into a "restitution" fund to rectify the ripoffs of the hacks. Every time more rules, permits or codes were added it would create more incentive for the hacks to jump in.

The problem seems to be that along with licensing and permitting there needs to be good enforcement against the people who operate outside of this process. This seems to be the Weak point in this whole thing.

I think it would be better to approach this matter on a local as well as a state level.The chances of success would be increased greatly. If I can be of any help let me know.

Your friend and competitor, Gary from Granville

heatboy

Let's keep that way in PA.

Would having a license to do work make you a better mechanic, or would it add more stress to an already stressful business life? To think that licensing would stop the less than desirables from working is naive. Having some "inspector" who knows less than I do about what I do is something not needed. Bad enough we have L&I to deal with.

Buyer beware.

Dave Yates (PAH)

L&I

As I understand it, L&I is being phased out and the code enforcement will be at the local level.

L&I will eventually be the appeals and oversight for all PA code inspectors. From what our area L&I inspector has said, he is well aware of problems with a number of our inspectors and has his sights set on one in particular. Won't really have much of an affect though because there's no dismissal powers or sanction powers being given to L&I.

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REF

Works in Vermont

but maybe because it is a simple system. The plumbing inspector is one of the best master plumbers in Vermont. If you settle for second best then that is what you get. Plumbers in Vermont must take 4 years of school and get 8,000 hours logged. So I say again why can not a great state like PA. or NY with more resources get it done. The answer is simple-They can. Consumer awareness is essential too.

As Always,

Respectfully
REF

Steve_35

A plumbing license in NO way guarantees a good job

What we need is enforcing the existing codes. I've been beating my fead against the wall just trying to get our local code office to require permits on new heating installs, as required by code, or to even inspect the jobs.

Some of the worst work we see is done by licensed hacks.