The magicians club

Wayco Wayne

I'm not so much a contractor but must be a member of "The Magicians Club." The last week I've run into jobs that are just impossible to fit into the space given us. I need to throw away my engineering books and get a magic wand. Today it was an Architech. She should have known better, but no...instead of putting space into the plans for ducts or equipment she was planning for storage space for the Lady of the house. Heaven forbid I should suggest running a duct through there, they might not be able to store another box of Xmas decorations. "Couldn't you put the furnace up there??" she says, pointing to the 15" triangular space above the cathedral ceiling of the Master bedroom. 15 feet in the air. I imagine me and my apprentice (The Mighty Theodore) sprinkling pixie dust on ourselves and sprouting little wings for the installation. What is she thinking???? Even if it could fit in there who would service it? Not me!!! Last Fall Dan Foley showed my class and I prints of a high end job where the mech room prints were printed in layers so nothing could be installed before it should be and block another trade. Wouldn't it be nice if residential designers gave even a fraction of that kind of consideration to the mechanical in their designs. Thanks for letting me rant. Much less espensive than therapy. Less fattening than beer. :P WW

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Carl PE

Beer is good for you.

You should put the furnace in their walk-in closet.

Right in the middle.

This is how people end up with package units on a slab, and duct running up the side of their house.

bigugh_4

You have hit a favorite anguish of mine!

residential designers (an architech NOT) just make what sells. and the Lady of the house buy's what the designer has produced. Never mind the space needed to install anything mechanical. Latest here is a huge show-off house, and she wants duct work! Like was pointed out yesterday, a 3/4 pipe carries more heat than a 8X10 duct. cleaner, faster, quieter, but no madame wants what the designer spect! Not to mention the other advantages of a radiant system. It is all a conspiricy of dumb designers. Cheap, fast, and nuts! Oh & by the way, She has a 1/2 bath door opening into the entrance hall such that the toilet is in full view! Now that is what I call OBIVIOUS!
JMO biguigh

J.C.A._3

Wayne,

I feel your pain. I've taken to letting the "designers" know that what we are installing ISN'T an option....it's a NECESSITY.It may seem like an "evil" to them...but when the lady of the house is cold, someones going to hear about it. God forbid, they get the bill for tearing down a wall to service their heating system after something goes down.

WE, as professionals have to get to the architects before they "box us in" and tie our hands as to the space we need to provide the best possible system to both thier and OUR customers. Heating, cooling and hot water are NOT options in a new home. They are necessities and we should get the space we need to both provide AND service the equipment that THEY want, and deserve with the price of their "biggest investment".

Fight for your right to provide them what they need! If it takes knocking a designer down a notch or 2, don't fret. Make it known to them that these things don't fix themselves and it takes "this much"space to let the guy who has to repair it make it happen. Don't be bullied!!!! If it the space is that important....do you want to do this job anyway? JMHO. Chris

JimGPE_3

Yeah, I'm hip

I was the MEP engineer of record on the design for a 42 story building. The architect had sold the developer on the total square footage per floor and the floor square footage per apartment. Thus, the total floor square footage could not get bigger and the appartment square footage could not get smaller.

Not one electrical closet, not one shaft on the plan.

42 storys!!!!

I had to threaten to quit to get him to listen to me.

J.C.A._3

YEA Jim!!!!

If there's room for comfortable living, there have to be spaces for the equipment to make it possible. (I'd like to quote some famous philosopher here...but things were different back then, so I'll have to take full credit for this!) Chris

leo g_13

in the greater

Vancouver region, we have one municipality, that at least enforces a 100 sq.ft. rule for the mechanical room. The archy's try to always steal some of this space, but the plumbing inspectors are tenacious about keeping that standard.

Leo G

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S Ebels

Amen Brother!!!

Just looked at a job we're doing this AM. When I spoke with the builder a month or so ago, there was supposedly going to be a nice chase to get everything up to the second story.

YEH RIGHT!!

When I got there and looked, there's a 10" x 22" chase, sure enough, but all the water and drain lines, a ventilation line and our supply and return (8x18) have to go in it. To compound the matter, the floor joists don't line up from the first floor to the second. One of them neatly bisects the 10 x 22 area right down the middle.

A guy could just scream sometimes.

Guess these folks are going to lose a closet somewhere.

Weezbo

) Thanx! That was refreshing *~/:) someone else being

asked to drag out the crystal ball and all amazing all seeing eye surely we can draft some sorta sketch on this here paper bag ..just so you can have a "rough Idea " )

Then comes the designe engineer the p.e....the architect of record )) well this is what we got fellas now learn ta live with it or after elebenty six thousands of dollars the entire plan incorperates the basic idea you presented in the first place.... work may proceed ) whatajoke.
Heck ,you would have made money at it if you hadnt let them know how to go about it just hang around changing things till they either run outta money or listen to you clearly the First time *~/:) oh ...and dont forget to Thank Them Profusely...when was the last time you had the opportunity to fly up there and do that? tell these people you need to go get your "Spring" shoes '(Right now unfortunately miss i am wearing my summer shoes) when i get back from looking around in the truck i will have my spring shoes on and Then I Can Bounce Up There and DO All That!

csmclean

Springy Shoes

...the latest item which needs to be kept on the service truck! Plus, springs of differing rates depending on how high up the access to said equipment is. Also, a set of monkey bars up there to grab onto for doing the work!

The HVACTalk site has tales, tails and tales of woeful stories concerning lousy design and access of HVAC stuff...

Craig

Wayco Wayne

Yeah I've seen

a lot of sad situations of little or no planning. Back when Reagan was President I was asked to start up a 20 ton commercial air handler in a new Ritz Carlton Hotel downtown. The hotel had just been built and Nancy Reagan was having a an event honoring the "Girl Scouts of America" Apparently the event had been booked way in advance before the place was built. No one had moved in and the heat had not been turned on yet. They called the day of the event. I was escorted by the secret service to the mechanical room only to find the control panel was butted up against the Wall. (good job mech contractors, duh!) I had to go into the Ballroom put up an extension ladder on the stage and cut a hole in the drywall to get to the on/off control switch. Never got a thank you from Nancy or the Girl Scouts. Hmmph! WW.

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J.C.A._3

One of the first jobs.....

I did working for Scott had me planning and seeking paths for the pex and feeds for quite a few different zones.

When it was my turn to go in, the plans were completely obsolete and the builder and architect had my boiler room, tank room and all acceses to anywhere completely enclosed in steel beams that couldn't be drilled for any reason.What was supposed to be an easy run turned into a cluster&%^# in very short term.

The icing on the cake was the potable water lines that HAD to be run in outside walls, due to the "revised plans". They have come back and bitten the designer in the butt HARD! Who were we to tell them that this was going to happen?

To quote a poster that has been around for eternity...."A crisis on your part doesn't neccesesarily mean an emergency on my part". Or better ....Poor PLANNING on your part doesn't mean an emergency on my part. You were warned and failed to heed the advice given....Assume the position. Chris

[Deleted User]

The cell phone

guys are stealing space in many of the great boiler rooms in the 20s, 30s, & 40s era buildings in our fair town. An antenna on the roof brings in big bucks. Some day one of their mega bucks switching rooms will be killed by a steam leak or plugged sewer. I'll be the guy standing in the corner w/ the big grin saying "I warned you."