Copper Pipe in home steam heating

Mad Dog_2

Prime example....as you'll know we like to use Cast Iron steam fittings and all black Iron on a boiler, but sometimes the supply house sticks ya with what they got and its gotta go in. On this recent steam repipe we had to use a mix of malleable and iron, and even a few galvanized nipples as well. I had ordered 4 X 2 concentric reducers for my tie in to the exist 4" main fitting, but got stuck with bushings..... This is real-life heating. A little copper and galvanized will not ruin any system. This boiler actually had the blocked vent switch jumped out too...for no apparent reason. In any case I think we gave this Burnham In 5 back her dignity. My 150lb bullmastiff friend agrees........Mad Dog

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Dick Olsen

Copper pipe in home steam heating

I’m talking with a contractor for the installation of a new steam boiler in my home. Single pipe system. He wants to install copper pipe on the wet (return) side to hook up with the new boiler. He claims the poor quality iron pipe we get nowadays is no good, such that copper will last longer with no problems. (About 10 years ago the previous owner had a radiator moved, and copper was plumbed to it - so far it’s fine.) I think the contractor just wants to do it the easy way sweating fittings rather than cutting pipe. What say you all?

gerry gill

well, my theory is,

if the old timers wanted to use copper they would have..that said, altho i use steel, many top notch steamfitters will plumb in the return pipes, and only the return pipes in copper with fine longevity results..so i guess its personal preference on the returns..could always use schedule 80 steel..

Al Corelli

Black pipe. Only.

It was good enough for my Great Grandfather, Grandfather, Father and me. All together, we've installed thousands of steam boilers.

It is good enough for you.

Mad Dog_2

I prefer all black...................................

but when economics and speed are an issue, we'll offer copper on the wet returns. The comment about the quality of iron & steel today is hogwash (except for the Chinese stuff) ...it was probably more true way back when. I like your thinking, Al....tradition holds a lot of weight with me. Mad Dog

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pipe dr

Good enough...

They probably used galvanized on water lines too. Do you pipe your water lines in galvi????

Jim Bennett

Copper

One of the buildings I service (500,000 sq Ft) Is steam heated (regulated to 30 lbs) with ALL COPPER RETURNS. Built in 1973, and everything I have cut into looks perfect. Personally I prefer black iron for steam systems, but I think copper can be acceptable for returns.

Jim

thfurnitureguy_4

copper vs iron

Ah... a kinder gentler discussion of Ford vs Chevy. I would love to thank whoever said it, but, it seams the killer of return piping is a leaky system. Adding new water eats iron like crazy. That Im sure goes for the boiler also.

Michal

All return piping should be

schedule 80, as a engineer, thats all we specify on plans, that is due to the fact of corrosion. return water in steam ayatems is corrosive. I prefer black steel anyway, but as mad dog said when economics comes to play it is cheaper and faster. and second why are you doing a steam system in a new house and not water or radiant or air??

Michal

All return piping should be

schedule 80, as a engineer, thats all we specify on plans, that is due to the fact of corrosion. return water in steam ayatems is corrosive. I prefer black steel anyway, but as mad dog said when economics comes to play it is cheaper and faster. this can go just like chevy or ford all day. Black steel has been for years, but thats how I was taught and have done in the feild

Steamhead

I find copper wet returns last longer

since they don't rust up and accumulate sludge the way black pipe can. That's for WET returns which are filled with water, not dry returns which aren't and theoreticaly steam could enter them. As long as you don't install copper where steam will get into it, you should be OK.

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Unknown

I agree with Steamhead

Here's a pic of a 15 year old Weil steamer , and the steel return piping . The accumulation could have been caused by many factors , but in my experience if the piping was copper it wouldn't have that buildup . I have a few pics of the inside of copper returns also , I'll see if I can locate them . But I do notice with old copper returns that if you run your finger on the inside , it's as smooth as the day of install .

I've installed hundreds of steam boilers , mostly the Peerless JOT and ECT lines , and almost every one of them has some copper on the return . There's only been a handful of that brand boiler I've had to replace so far - since 1986 . It could be that Peerless makes a damn fine steamer . My educated opinion is copper on the return has little to no effect in the the deterioration of a steam boiler . And also , using type L copper and fittings , this is not exactly the cheap way to run a return .

Al Corelli

Can't get galvanized pipe at our local supply houses. Just kidding. No,

We were always told never to use copper on steam. We have the threader in the basement, so why not use steel.

Kal Row

you can use copper on the supply too as long as...

You use K thickness pipe, refrigeration grade fittings, silver braze the joints – and insulate them well – have only seen steam copper failures on the supply side with cheap sweat fittings or “M” pipe – they probably thought, steam is only a pound or less of pressure, so “M”, should be fine, and could be, until cold condensate hits hot steam, then “FLASH BANG PUFF!!!” – moral of the story, the only thing “M” is good for is the HOME-DEsPOT or sLOEWS bottom line

Mad Dog_2

True enough Ron............................

Wording is key here though: Cheap is a "DIRTY" WORD. The real economics of it, to me, is the speed in which copper can go in. With all other things being equal, I can pipe out a copper return about 60% faster than black iron. I agree that copper doesn't clog up with carbuncles, but I go back to high school chemistry....and dissimilar metals and longevity. A metalurgist (spelling?) would know best, though. Any here? Bottom line, like the malleable VS Cast iron debate, either works, and at one time or another we all use both. Mad Dog

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WPH2205

I have installed several hundred steam boilers and have always used black pipe for all near boiler piping. But, I have also installed steam baseboard (both cast iron and steel fin-type) and have used copper for both the supply and return. No problems. I understand what was said above about the condensate and live steam, but I install all steam baseboard with two pipes. You know, we all install hydronic systems with type M copper and run 200 degree water through it. I just don't buy the argument that copper will fail on a steam runout to a piece of baseboard at 215 degrees at 1 pound pressure, and work just fine with 200 degree water at 15 pounds pressure. That piece of copper doesn't know if it has steam or water in it. The temperature and pressure are the only thing that make a difference and at 215 degrees copper can handle steam just fine. Again before I get anyone upset, I'm not advocating the use of copper for headers, or any near boiler supply piping. But for a branch to a piece of B.B.? No problem.

Steamhead

In \"Lost Art\"

Dan says the trouble with copper on steam is that it expands more than black, and the soldered joints have no "give" the way threaded joints do. This can cause the joints to break under expansion stress. I'd assume that this is more of a problem in larger, shorter pipes like you'd find at the boiler than the smaller ones feeding just one rad or baseboard.

Add to this the lousy soldering of the typical hack, and that's why we see so many copper headers leaking.

Mad Dog, that IN5 got a new lease on life. Nice job.

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Unknown

I think the premature

failure of copper on the mains had more to do with the use of 50/50 solder back in the day , combined with lousy cleaning and soldering of the joints , like you said Frank .

We don't see copper above the boiler often , but when we do it usually looks in good shape . But I would guess plating off would happen alot faster in the mains than in the return on a steam system .

I'm not sure how long ago this repipe was done , but it looks at least a few decades old . The boiler was still running when we replaced it .

gerry gill

very nice save there maddog

cute puppy

Mad Dog_2

Thanks Gerry

He made me an offer I couldn't refuse.......MD

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Unknown

Beautiful repipe Matt

I bet that system is trouble free from the huge size of the near boiler piping . I know what you mean about finding the fittings you need . Last time we used 4 inch I had my supervisor calling all over Long Island looking to track down a few tees . He wound up driving into the city to get em for us .

Kal Row

those that say steam heat is a lost art, havent met you!!!

Steamhead

Around here

I see them leaking after only a year or two. Not sure what solder they're using- but whatever it is, it doesn't hold.

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bob young

expert craftsmenship

that is one good looking pipefitting job.

Mad Dog_2

Thanks for the kind words guys........

When you love what you do it shows. Mad dog

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Mad Dog_2

Thanks Ron

Yeah especially since the system had NO main vents at all!!!!! She now has 2 Gorton #2s and 2 Gorton #1s....one for each main... heat comes up silent and deadly. If you ever need odd stuff...call Chris at Christ Supply 516 328-0499 are very good at getting that stuff and stock alot for me anyway. Its a pleasure to save these old systems. MD

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Boiler Guy

Mad Dog ....

You had said you were posting pics of your newborn ..... I hope these weren't them!! :-( However, you also said the baby did look a "lot like" you .....I do see a s l i g h t resemblance. Help me out here P L EEE Z E

Christian Egli

Wrought iron rusts and black iron rusts too

There is a true difference between black iron pipe and the wrought iron pipe of the old olden days, just as puff pastry dough makes the difference between good and bad apple turnovers.

Hungry for more?

To make iron you start with pig iron. Pig iron is similar to cast iron in appearance and is the first thing you get after you're done cooking your iron ore, your flux and your coal in the smelter. Pig iron melts at a rather low temperature, about 1240 deg C, and thus has been a manufacturing operation since prehistoric times.

We all know how cast iron breaks like glass. Pig iron is the same. To obtain soft-as-noodle pure iron, one simply has to remove the carbon that the pig iron alloy contains. That hasn't always been easy.

METHOD A

Nowadays, to remove the carbon, you first obtain a pot of molten metal into which you start blowing oxygen just like you would with a blow torch. In a big splash of sparks, you'll soon have burned all the carbon. You'll also need to hold your carbon-free iron at a much higher temperature, about 1530 deg C. (An iron and carbon slush melts at a lower temperature than the pure iron, just like the mixtures of snow and salt we encounter so often in winter).

Good modern pipe would be made of this stuff.

Our prehistoric cave dwellers did not have furnaces with forced draft that allowed them to reach pure iron melting temperatures. Also, they did not have furnaces that prevented more of the carbon in the burning fuel from diving into the metal solution.

So, what was there left to do for our ancestors if they wanted to have steam heat pipes?

The ubiquitous tool at the time was the mace. In frustration, it follows that someone must have started to pound the mass of iron and carbon slush. What happened next is nothing short of magic, just like witnessing a radiator filling up with steam.

This process was improved over thousands of years but remained the same until the time of the first World War. Then, as in method A, Bessemer, Siemens and the oxygen lance changed the history.

METHOD B

Molten pig iron is placed in a puddling furnace and poked and squeezed with hand tools. Gradually the metal turns into a sponge like mass and carbon particles fall out of the mixture. The final metal analysis shows little carbon left which means this iron can be welded and forged. This is the wrought iron which was vital for making nails, horse shoes, farm tools, weapons, and steam pipes.

Here is what is special.

This old fashioned wrought iron contains, as a side effect of the poking and squeezing, a large amount of slag. About 3%, all finely layered into the metal, as in flaky puff pastry. The slag, a left-over from impurities and the flux, is a form of iron silicate.

When we let wrought iron pipes rust, the rust penetrates the iron, then hits one large slag flake and stops because iron silicate laughs in the presence of corrosive liquids. Lots of flakes all together make for a good rust barrier.

So, what about the apple turnover?

Modern black iron does not have the flaky puff pastry texture. Nowadays, some corrective alloying with silicon gives the metal similar properties. Was the old stuff better? I don't know, I just like apple turnovers. It occurs to me that there aren't many prehistoric caves left with unrusted remnants of condensate return lines...

Here is what I would worry about.

Black iron pipe is good at not rusting too much as long as it contains hardly any carbon neither any alloying elements beyond silicon. This is true when the iron is made from virgin pig iron.

Steel made from re-melted scrap is rich in alloying elements giving it strength, hardness, and all kinds of advantages for uses such as in machine-tools and I-beam framed building. Interestingly, these steels are no good for rusting pipes and rusting car bodies.

Remember how early Japanese cars would rust? for lack of resources, they were made of re-melted steel. The sheet metal contained remaining traces of alloying elements that probably made it stronger but also made it rust quickly.

If you find that your new nipples and pipes rust too quickly, you could suspect this situation. Test your iron for carbon content at a bench grinder, look at the sparks coming off your samples and learn to see differences.

Today, some Japanese automobiles are made of the brand new sheet metal that comes out of the Armco AK Steel Mill here near Dayton, it is pure, soft iron, and they no longer rust overnight.

Thanks for reading, I hope this was fun. What actually was the question?

Christian Egli

Oh, I didn't say a word about copper... it rusts too, sometimes faster, and there is no flake-deal to stop the penetrating rust. It just turns green instead. Prettier?