Dealer Push FHA Only-why?

Mark Adams

.. I went to 3 very reputable HVAC dealers in town, handed them my blueprints and asked for prices for a nice HW system and a nice FHA system. Each one tells me (nicely) that I am nuts to consider a boiler and BB or BB mixed with radiant. I get stories of how great the new furnaces are how there is nothing more comfortable than multistage V/S forced air. Hydronic is stone aged technology they say.

They do however provide prices for both and the hydronic quotes were outrageous. They also oversized the boilers by 100%. But then, they oversized the proposed furnaces by 100% too! And I did ask for load calcs based on my prints and specs.

The dealer who'll be getting the work got it right and is working with my on my system.

THE QUESTION IS: Why is everyone so bent on selling FHA? I even told them I was willing to do AC as a separate system. Is it lack of expertise with design and install? More callbacks with hydronic? Less profit? They think folks are used to FHA and will not be happy with water? They are fearful that the home will be too tight the HO will be upset that they may need an HRV later? Opinions?

Thanks,

Mark

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Really tough to answer. Are new hydronic systems extremely uncommon in your area? If so, lack of expertise and experience is likely the major problem.

Oversizing is still WAY too common as you've seen. The multi-staged, variable-speed air units only make it easier to "disguise" the oversizing. Of course you've paid for more unit than you need, and you're not going to get the full benefit of the staging. Of course, you'll be able to use short, extreme setbacks in the false belief that you've saved energy and there's almost no chance of a "not enough heat" complaint...

The extreme price difference may well come from the lack of experience. If they're not particularly experienced and rather obviously don't want to do a hydronic system in the first place, the quote is certain to cover a lot of their own anticipated problems. Are you certain they're quoting a top-notch forced air system? FULLY ducted returns in all major rooms/spaces? Well-sealed ductwork? Careful attention to balance/duct sizing in both the supply and return systems? Ductwork either in conditioned space (best) or with good external insulation?

A tightly constructed home needs a HRV/ERV regardless of the type of heating system. (That is unless the ductwork is leaky enough to eliminate the problem by sucking outdoor air and exhausing heated air.)

Unknown

Lack of expertise.

Your mistake was going to the HVAC dealers instead of the hydronic heating professionals.

It humors me that they would try to convince any reasonable person "there is nothing more comfortable than multistage V/S forced hot air." Did they really say that hydronics is a stone aged technology? LOL !!!

I assume the hydronic quotes were outrageously high because they don't want to sell what they don't understand. They may be reputable HVAC dealers but, they don't have a clue about thermal comfort. Over-sizing equipment 100% should tell you something about just how reputable they really are. IMO.



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S Ebels

Sad Facts

Forced air is the path of least resistance. When it comes to price FHA is the cheapest, therefore it's the easiest to sell. When it comes to training, knowledge, and skill of the installer it just doesn't require as much of any of these three items, therefore it's easiest. FHA as installed in 95% of the new homes that I see just doesn't take as much expertise as HWH. Oh, and did I mention that it's cheaper?

Practically any warm body can hang duct and run the exhaust outdoors. (correctly or not is a different question) FHA "hides" deficient designs and mistakes in sizing more readily than HWH. You can oversize the equipment and the only thing you as a homeowner notice is that the furnace doesn't run very long. The higher repair and utility costs are hidden because the equipment "runs" leading to the assumption that everything is OK.

Just out of curiosity, what brand of FHA equipment were they giving you quotes on?

Mark Adams

Answers to above questions

The FHA equipment quoted was for Trane (1 dealer), Lennox (2 dealers) and Heil stuff (1 dealer). The "other" dealer knew how to do both, did a proper loss calc and provided good info on each system, what would be installed, how it would work, etc. In fairness, the Trane dealer did say that a hydronic system would be very comfortable, but that the average customer would find the FHA just as good and cheaper too.

Yes, one combo Heil/Lennox dealer did say that installing hydronics would be like going back to the stone age! And his showroom had 4 really nice boilers on display.

Mike T.- I did ask that the FHA quotes include fully ducted return, sealing and sizing per the Manual.

As far as air changes, I intend to go with foam insulation and use multipoint exhaust on timers for the first winter unless the blower door test says to put in the HRV right away.

S Ebels

Exhaust

Don't forget that in a tight envelope you need to supply intake if you expect to exhaust anything. We've used an appropriately sized duct connected to outdoor air supply and a motorized damper powered up by the exhaust system