Speaking of copper and steam......

Paul Mitchell_2

I was recently talkng to a friend of mine. When I was a young pup and just starting out I learned much of what I do now from him. We started to talk about steam replacements. He sees no problem with using K copper and a good solder for the header and near boiler piping to the existing system. I can not disagree more. I know from hanging around with you guys on this site we are mostly on the same page. Does anyone here do this?

bob young

steel vs. copper

we used to do all copper headers for small residential boilers [ 125,000 ] btu range single riser . soldered joints w/ 95-5. we did them for about ten years no problems and every one still going strong. no doubt in my mind they work well if piped properly. we did them as so mainly for production and pricing purposes. i took a good look at one and decided they were too ugly and switched back to steam fittings ,steel pipe and added drop headers and never looked back. i have done over a dozen like this and am well satisfied. we do drop headers on every one and they are awesome in my book.

EBEBRATT-Ed

I have been told indirectly that some boiler inspectors won't accept copper. I have never read in any code book that you couldnt.

However we know black mallable fittings are rated 150 lb steam and cast iron is 125 lb steam--what is the steam rating for copper fittings??? if any.

Will have to do some investigation.

ED

jesse the great

copper near boiler piping

I went to the PHCC trade show in marlgough MA and checked out the burnhams steam near boiler piping seminar and i asked the speaker about using copper for the piping and the answer was"You can use copper if you want, but Burnham will not warrantee the boiler due to the flux". so thats something to think about

Unknown

Jesse

Actually, I was that speaker and due to the background noise issue during those seminars, you may have not heard all of my words regarding this issue. It is not that we will not warranty the boiler at all. What I was attempting to convey was that you will have a bear of a time trying to get the flux out of the boiler and near boiler piping once it gets in there. The other issue involves possible electrolytic reactions between the different metals and of course the expansion issues. We do address this in our Installation Manuals as a Notice or Caution but do not neccessarily state anything regarding it voiding the warranty. Here is a copy of the statement from the manual. By the way, I enjoyed the MA PHCC Trade Show immensely and hope to be involved again next year. I do hope that we are allowed to hold these seminars in a quieter venue such as the Hotel though.It is difficult speaking over the background level that 2,000 people can generate. A wonderful turnout on a miserable snowy day! Sorry for the misunderstanding!


Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

www.burnham.com

Unknown

Bob

You may want to check your e-mail address that you have registered here on the wall. Apparently you have the Notification via E-Mail address checked to let you know of further posts, but those are bouncing back because you have "aol.copm" in your e-mail address instead of "aol.com". Just thought you might like to know!

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

www.burnham.com

jesse the great

Glenn that was you, you handsome basterd, sorry about the mixup it was pretty noisey thanks a lot Jesse

jesse the great

OOH yeh Burnhams heating helper book that you guys had there is awsome tons of technical info I love that kind of stuff. you guys sould be prould of yourselfs for publishing data to help contractors. cause no one else does it

bob young

GLENN

Thanx Glenn. i was wondering what happened. now all i have to do is figure out how to fix it. burnham rules, been using 'em forever. bob

Unknown

Bob

All you have to do is click on the "Options" link at the top of this screen and your e-mail address will be displayed in the "personal" box. Change it and click OK and you are on your way again.

Thanks for your support! This year is promising to be a big year for us due to some new products we have already introduced and are getting ready to introduce very shortly. Should be a real exciting year!

Glenn

Jack Ennis Martin

Copper on Steam

I have just read the email regarding copper and steam. I am not comfortable using copper on steam at anytime. In my opinion ,the only material is steel pipe Schedule Fory on the supplies and Schedule 80 on the returns -- if the job can stand stepping up to extra heavy pipe costs. I also do not agree with the use of malleable fittings on steam if cast can be obtained. The point of the extra cost for schedule 80 is for longer condensate life of the pipe -- if they are installed with malleable fittings you are wasting your money ,as the fittings will rot through before the pipe ,so no advantage is realized. The question was asked regarding the strength of copper fittings. I am a refrigeration journeyman as well as heating and I can tell you that in the summer on a very hot day with a condenser that has not been cleaned since who knows when on R 22 :450 psig is not uncommon. However, all the joints are silfossed; no soft solder is used. Stay Brite ,sells a solder that is silver bearing and it is advertised to have a tensile strength of 26.000 psi burst. I have used it on refrigeration jobs with excellent success;if the condensate pressure ,on a refrigeration job, hits 450 psi something is very wrong. I would ask the question: why, would the copper installations be hard on the eyes? Copper is inherently nice to look at-- no? Pipe in copper, with the same pride of workmanship you use on steel, and the job should be very nice to the eye.

In summation, get a pipe threader setup, buy cast fittings, and use schedule 40 on supply and 80 on the returns and you will not have callbacks. Anything above 100 hundred psi,{ really anything above 15 psi} should be engineered and stamped so the specifications for the job is held to close tolerances. No one wants to see what happens if any steam bursts occur and especially; not on a high pressure installation.

Good luck and all the best.

A message to the person who piped in the last job I viewed,{Winnipeg}:all I can say is, Sears has a sale on tape measures and levels -- for heavens sake please buy one!!!! However, I am fairly sure ,you do not read this site anyways.

C. Faucher

I have used copper on steam piping for quite a few years NEVER had a problem.

As far as electrolisis goes we have been connecting copper DWV to cast iron pipe for ever not much problem there.

As far as looks I think Copper looks better unless you take the time to paint all of your steel pipe black.

I have had some conversations with inspectors years ago about copper and steam but they could never site a code for me or a manufacturers recommendation for that matter.As long as we use type (l),(m)or (k) and pressure fittings and you use 95/5 or silverbrite You should have very little problems.

As far as expansion and heat loss through the bare copper tubing allowances must be made to over come both of these real problems. Armarflex and swing joints anyone ???

Steve Paul

Copper Steam piping

While I realize that this may offend the purists here, I will tell you that we have installed many steam replacement boilers and repiped many steam jobs with Pro-Press copper fittings and "L" copper. Not one joint failure to date. No flux problems and the fittings take up the expansion. Even when we used copper pressure fittings and 95/5 solder we had joint no failures. True, the copper lacks the beauty of old time black pipe and steam fittings but if performance and efficiency is what you are after, copper with Pro-Press is the way to go.

JohnNY8

$0.02

When I was a helper for my Dad about 600 years ago, I saw an oil company's boiler installation and watched as they put it into service.
Two 2" copper joints pulled apart as we were standing there watching it.
I'll never forget it, scared the hell out of me.

As with many things in life, there's a right way and a way that kinda works too.

As a professional, I can't see taking a chance.

Screw pipe/swing joints/cast fittings all get my vote.

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