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My radiant ceiling is ticking like

hr
hr Member Posts: 6,106
It has been running for about a month now. The noise, a soft ticking like rain on a metal roof, has slowly increased.

My fault, as I just screwed the plates to the sheetrock. Bad idea.

So I just got back from HD where I picked up a stud locater with laser. Now I have to go back and redrill and rescrew. Me wife is going to love that. She is so fond of this look to begin with :)

I do also have a crude, dumb, temperature control currently. I merely tied into the HW baseboard loop and ball valved the flow. The boiler is on reset, but still a bang/bang control on this zone.

I plan a complete redo on my system this spring. Reluctantly I will decommision this loyal and trusty Weil GV. Installed in 1996 I haven touched a thing. Not even an HSI!

Going to go back with a modulating condensor and constant circ of some sort.

As for radiant ceiling in general... I would still go with radiant floor as a first choice if at all possible. The floors in the ceiling radiant area never warm to the degree of the kitchen and bath floors.

Still radiant ceiling is a small step above HW bb for comfort and "looks" if they were under the sheetrock that is :)

hot rod

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Comments

  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 2,827
    your the king

    You must be the king hot rod my wife would shoot me in my sleep if i put that up on our cieling but don,t get me wrong at least i see that some one else has had the guts to do it .i,m really tempted to give it a try in my basement for i'm getting ready to switch by boiler for a buderus gb142 some panel rads and some radiant in the garage ,baths and kichten all i really need is the time to get it all done peace clammy
    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    That is accurate information....

    when you lashed this up,... one of the places for a friend ,a transit bus driver,rick who spent considerable time in insulating his place was wondering about some heat in the arctic entrance so i had him nail up some OSB. my nephew ,Jason went out and cut and tacked up some thick plate and we ran some ceiling heat in it,i had him put some 5/8" sheet rock over the plates and another 5/8"over that...maybe i should go back over there some day and see how quiet it is..betwix you me an the wall , i thought your idea was looking to good not to work :) sandwich boat building is alot like our "experimental experientials " :)we ought to get that Constantin to lash up some radiant on his boat ! :) maybe we could find an entire new market :) Yacht,ketch,yawl and schooner radiant! :)
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,537
    No Likey

    I was wondering how your install was doing. Sorry to hear your disatisfaction. I think you are running quite a different animal performance wise,than a imbedded copper and plaster system as mine. My tube centers are 6" which is a big factor also. Hey you could tear out the pex and install rope lights in the plates. Duel purpose lighting and latent heat. Run lights in chaser mode, for special effects tie in with sound system:))
    Gordy
    cnmdesign
  • Dave Stroman
    Dave Stroman Member Posts: 762


    Hot Rod, Do you really think the noise is from the plates against the sheet rock? From my experience, the ticking is from the PEX against the plates or where it is stapled to the sheet rock. I use Kitec with plates and get absolutely no noise. The plates are screwed to the subfloor with 6 to 8 screws. Tubing is stapled between the plates and on the ends.

    Dave in Denver
    Dave Stroman
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    the day you first posted this hr...

    i asked "wach-ya-gona-do-to-make-it-quiet?"
    noise is the bane of ceiling radiant -
    yeah yeah i know - constant temp, constant circulation, thick aluminim plates, nylon pex mounts....

    heard it all, its pure bull!!!

    - doesnt work -

    i aint gona do it unless the customer is willing to pay for that lightweight alumanized composite subfloor (eg the one from zurn) upside down in ceiling with the pex fully siliconed into the channels and even then, if the customer is a light sleeper - they will hear the ceiling joists stress from the subfloor expansion - so i walk away - cause for those types, it's hunky cast iron radiators with the supply and return pipes isolated from strcuturee, or nothing

    - i am too young to die!!!
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    Yeah, it's

    the attachment.

    That is Wirsbo PAP tightly driven into the ThermoFin plates. Regardless of the friction between the two companies, it is a good fit mix :)

    If I reach up and grab the channel on the plate and rock it side to side slightly I get the tick. Not me, actually, the plates tick!

    I trash talk 'em. Sounds like an episode of "Deadwood", which doesn't change things much, but I feel better.

    Think if I hit the bottom cord of every (16" oc) roof truss, with a screw I will have the "hold" I need.

    I got a little lazy in my zest to perform a one day radiant ceiling install. I'm not about to write off radiant ceilings, just need to refine my retro methods :) I can't imagine this exposed ceiling method would be sellable in a residential application. A work in progress in my own place.

    hot rod

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  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    the day you first posted this hr...

    i asked "wach-ya-gona-do-to-make-it-quiet?"
    noise is the bane of ceiling radiant -
    yeah yeah i know - constant temp, constant circulation, thick aluminum plates, nylon pex mounts....

    heard it all, don’t believe it’s quiet – unless of course someone out there has demonstrable experience to the contrary ;)


    i aint gona do it unless the customer is willing to pay for that lightweight aluminized composite sub floor (eg the one from zurn) upside down in ceiling with the pex fully siliconed into the channels and even then, if the customer is a light sleeper - they will hear the ceiling joists stress from the sub floor expansion - so i walk away - cause for those types, it's hunky cast iron radiators with the supply and return pipes isolated from structure, or nothing at all

    i think the idea of the heat being off from 10pm-5am also stemmed from quietness reasons - not only health reasons (dry air, or CO danger), radiant, which is round the clock by design, doesn’t fit well with that - i tell people that, before they put in radiant - it's amazing i get any radiant work after all the cons i spit out

    PS now that I’ve calmed down:
    A tekmar tstat with the slab sensor in the ceiling, controlling a mixing valve or vari injection, and with constant circ – will help a lot – especially if you are feeding it off a buffer tank, which can keep the whole show within 1 degree –

    However being that you need a pump on the zone downstream from the mixer – beats me how you are going to silence he pump noise – perhaps a low-r felt between the sheetrock and the pex – wish the made stainless steel wool sheets, would be perfect for this – act as a heat conductor, yet also be a sound isolator (it’s my invention for today) – of course – don’t expect your cell phone to work under steel wool sheets – but you wont get bombarded with all that unhealthy RF either –
    But if your house ever gets hit by lightning – “flash”…. It would be real pur-dy for a moment – bah! - it’s a stupid invention ;)
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    Hot rod....Do you know where i can buy some more of this?

    it is soft aluminium flares just like soft copper...i would like to see about purchasing some of this stuff in thissize and in larger diameters...
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    Weez wiz

    first tell me what you are doing with it!

    That looks like the stuff they jammed into the CombiCors. Thin aluminum is a poor choice for water tube, IMO. It is very sensitive to ph, and other water conditions.

    Do a web search for aluminum tubing. I suspect the companies that make tube for gas use, like pilot tubing, offer various sizes.

    At least tell THEM your intent so they hook you up with the best alloy. It's a lot like stainless steel that way, all kinds of alloys for special purposes.

    hot rod

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  • GMcD
    GMcD Member Posts: 477
    Capillary tubes

    This is a good reason to take a hard look at the capillary tube systems like the Karo or Clina-x stuff. Pretty well all the European residential radiant ceiling systems use the "plastered-in" capillary tube system so the tubes are completely encased and in contact with the ceiling material. The trick is to keep the heat losses minimized so low heating water temperatures are used so there isn't very much expansion/contraction of the radiant system.

    I'm sure that a system of 1/2" PEX and tracks/plates could be made to work as long as the installation was tight and the heating temperatures are kept low with a very slow modulating control valve or a constant circulation mixing valve set.
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    i want to use it for electrical wiring, to my circs...

    i used to have like a 50 foot roll of it ...i just dont know where to get it anymore...i go look on web page in gas outfitters see if may beee...they have some :)
  • Simply Rad_2
    Simply Rad_2 Member Posts: 171
    Better a clock

    Hot Rod
    Better its the radiant ceiling sound like a cheap clock ,than the sound of your radiant dog barking! I have seen pictures are you using him to kep you warm.
    Jeffrey


  • That's easy...


    PEX-AL-PEX, Problem solved. Feed the manifolds with PEX, no pump noise propagation (and an easier install!) outside the mech room.

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    cnmdesign
  • Paul Pollets
    Paul Pollets Member Posts: 3,569
    HR...

    Have you considered using the Oventrop UniBox for the ceiling application? You could plump it in to any high temp S/R circuit, as long as that circuit is on constant circulation and outdoor reset.

    Ellen loves ya!!

    Great work, as usual.
    Paul

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  • bob_44
    bob_44 Member Posts: 112
    Expansion

    Yo Hot Rod, I don't think the longer screws will help, the plates have to grow or buckle. With 8' long plates and a 60F delta T the plates will grow .076" a little over 1/16". the pex should grow 1.25". How about letting your ceiling cool to ambient, make some index marks on the tube and plates and drywall and then check it with 130F water. I'd sure like to know the results. Do you know the coefficient of expansion for pap. bob
    cnmdesign


  • Pex would want to grow about a half inch over 8' at a 60 degree drop, if it can overcome the friction of the plate in order to do so, which it shouldn't be able to do.

    PAP would be approximately 1/10th of that.

    There is no way the tubing should be slipping through his extruded plates, PAP or not. In a lightweight plate ceiling though, I would use PAP.

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  • bob_44
    bob_44 Member Posts: 112
    Rob

    Rob, what are you useing for coefficient of linear expansion for pex. I'm useing .00022. bob
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    anyone went to ish frankfurt?...cause the germans do a lot...

    of ceiling radiant - (heating and cooling), they might have solved the noise issue

    all the solutions posted here are wethead specials - looking for a engineerd/manufactured/certified solution


  • I was simply using Wirsbo's stated figures of 1.1" per 10 deg temp rise per 100 feet of pipe. I *hope* that isn't off by a factor of 2!!! 1.1*6*.08 = .528"

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  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    Hot Rod

    I'll have to ponder your dilema for a while, I don't see any easy answers. I agree the noise is probably from the dissimilar expansion rates of the plates and the PAP.

    We have done loads of walls and a few ceilngs with Climate Panel and have yet to experience any noise problems. All of these are on constant circ with water temp reset. No bang-bangs, they're bad bad. I think I'd leave it alone until you got your water temp control strategy ironed out. It'd be interesting to see if the system calmed down with the right controls in place. That's if, and only if your management will put up with it that length of time :)


  • I disagree,

    HR said straight out he screwed those puppies into sheetrock, and that he can replicate the tick by manually moving the plate. I don't think the problem is that expansion between the plate and pipe is dissimilar, just that there is some expansion that is moving the plates which are not firmly attached to a backer of some kind.

    Sheetrock is not an appropriate surface for mounting plates, basically. I don't see any mystery here at all. Am I missing something?



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  • bob_44
    bob_44 Member Posts: 112
    Bad Number

    Rob, Your post got me questioning my number so I got out the books and did a little more research. I've been useing a bad number for pex. ASME B31.3 says .00009 so does ASTM D696. .00009*8*60*12=.5184" Thanks for the heads up. bob
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    found some :) it really makes the wiring a thing of beauty ...

    it stays staight and looks streamlined..and it can be bent into swoopys :)almost makes the pumps look like they have some pressure regulating hydronicinterface:) 50 cent words for it looks cool:)
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    where???

  • GMcD
    GMcD Member Posts: 477
    Euro approach

    From my review of the commercial and some residential installations, there is a high percentage of the capillary tube systems plastered into ceilings being used in Germany. They tend towards heavier masonry buildings over there and it is fairly common to apply plaster walls and ceilings rather than using drywall/sheetrock/gyprock. From what I've been tracking, the capillary tube systems are the most common, followed by cast-in-place PEX in floors and suspended slabs. Also, they tend to have higher performance envelopes and glass which translates into low heating water temperature requirements. Most of the radiant ceiling projects I'm familiar with in Germany seldom use over 80F (27C) for the heating system operation anyway.
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520


  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    i know that they are using 60f for cooling...

    and a forced air desiccant conveyer belt for drying and they run the belt into the sun or a heater (at night) to dry it out

    the capillary makes sense - since the last one I saw was in an office, and it was a metallic looking design – but in that env noise isn’t that much of an issue, a bedroom is a different story

  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    NRT bob

    How in the heck did I miss that piece of info!!!??? Right at the top of the post no less.
  • hr
    hr Member Posts: 6,106
    Normally when I fasten to sheetrock

    I use these wallboard anchors. They work really well. Great for thermostat mounting! I hate when contractors just screw into the sheetrock with wood, or sheetmetal screws, for t-stat mounting!

    This is what I should have, and may have to go back and use.

    I'm going to resolve this noise issue, if it's the last thing I do :)

    hot rod

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  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    it takes me a while ......

    HVACtool. com JHLSupply. these guys have it and really , it makes a job look so much better....along time ago it was available here. then the outfit closed thier doors and well you know the story...
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    tnx

  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    correction - thats 65f for cooling

  • GMcD
    GMcD Member Posts: 477
    Thats better

    I was going to respond to that last night but the "other people" in the house hogged the computer all night, besides there was a great WHL Playoff Game on TV. Many of the Euro radiant cooling slab systems use a cooling tower (closed circuit fluid cooler) running at night to generate the cool water for the radiant cooling slab system in summertime. The key is to make sure the local climate can support that system - gotta have nightime temps below 63F DB / 62F WB to get the 65F cooling water, and even then it gets tough getting a decent cooling tower coil selection from BAC or ReCold. Or, use direct geo-exchange. Many systems use a bunch of HDPE tube buried in along with the building foundations/piles/excavated areas to use as a cooling source where the average ground temps at depth are conducive to the radiant cooling temperatures needed.
  • Kal Row
    Kal Row Member Posts: 1,520
    there are tons of heat/cooling loads and sources...

    got to get my hydronic crossbar switch invention built, so that any heating or cooling source can be vary injected to any heating or cooling load

    driveway: heat load in winter, heat source in summer

    geothermal loops: heat source winter – cooling source in summer – but only is efficient temperature matched for a liquid chiller/heater heat pump

    swimming pool: heat load summer, huge solar heat buffer tank in the winter, for the heat pumps if it can be covered properly - would require a huge shell/tube type HX, and be all plumbed to bottom of pool as the pool wouldn’t have antifreeze in it, pool would also require an open PVC bottom to top circulating system that would keep it from freezing for the most part, but wouldn’t crack, if it did freeze, cause of the open design, allowing no build up of internal pressure – (like a plastic soda bottle in the freezer) – an in ground pool with full insulation around the side above the frost line and on top should do just fine – pool can be evaporatively cooled at night in arid climates –

    face it: this planet runs it’s whole climate show through the oceans, with solar heating by day and radiation cooling at night, hydronics rocks!!!

    see attached pdf
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