Help with new installed radiant floor system that isnt working

Carrin

Thankyou

Thanks for all the help so far on this. At least we dont have to worry about the pipes freezing. Of course we have bigger problems now. If they had actually been able to get this thing working we would not have understood the problems with it. We will keep you posted on the status of this.

Thank you!

Wayco Wayne_2

Hey Mark!

Cool diagram. 2 questions for you. What program do you use to draw things like that? It would be a useful tool for me to have in my arsenal. Second question; Why go with the variable injection? Doesnt the Buderus Logomatic control have a built in mixing valve control, that activates with the installation of a card into the control? BTW, Thanks for your time helping folks here on the Wall. WW

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Mark Eatherton1

Wayne...

The 2107 doesn't come with a mixing card. You can get one for either 3-4 way or VSI, but it only comes with a basic boiler reset. That is one of the drawbacks of the 2107 IMHO.. Based on the number of pumps in her drawing, it would appear that the final intent was a VSI system, and she has enough pumps to do just that. Not sure they're the right size, but that needs to be addressed by trained eyes in the field.

As for the schematics, I use MS Paint, which comes on 95% of all PC's. I have a library of all the system drawings I've generated over the years, and all I have to do is grab it, modify it and resave it as whatever it ends up being. It takes a while to get used to it, like any drawing program, but once you do, and you have a library of symbols, you can build any system you want in short order. You have to work with it continualy to get and keep the hang of it, like ANY drawing program.

I've attached a set of written instructions and some symbols.

Enjoy! (Its finally SNOWING here in Denver, 4 to 8" of the white fluffy stuf before it stops)

ME

Jack Ennis Martin

problems with heatingsystem

Carrin,
I'm a local Plbg. & Htng. contractor (about 1/2hr from Townsend)


. I would be willing to take a look at the system for you. I have over 20 yrs experience in the radiant business. The contractor who put this in, tried a hodgepodge of primary/secondary piping. I don't think he understood the concept of what he was doing.(if he did you wouldn't have this problem). Looking at the pictures you posted,I think Mark Eatherton might be right about the Sawzall Surgery for the messed up piping from the boiler.It's too bad things like this happen.(It gives radiant a bad name,all because of an installation mistake)I see so much of this type of stuff out there (install mistakes)that could be avoided if these contractors would just take the time to educate themslves and their employees.(or don't attempt to install something they don't understand!!!)
Hope to hear from you.

JW

Carrin

Carrin

Well we managed to get temps up to 50 in that room. But this morning my husband realized that one of the pumps is out. We dont know if it was working before but its not working now. I marked it in the diagram. When I opened one of the closed valves I noticed that the remaining pump sounded as if it was running smoother. Is there any way we could have burned out this pump? I hope not.

I spoke with a heating company in a nearby town. They indicated that there have been problems with some systems that this man has installed. But he has been doing this for years. They also mentioned another radiant heat installer in the area that has installed non-functioning systems. They work with more traditional systems and not these high tech ones. He recommended to call the builder and dont pay until things are fixed.

I called the builder and asked for the billing information and he said he would be out here with the heating guy this afternoon to assess the situation. We were hoping to get someone in first to look at the system. Someone on this site may stop by this weekend.

Carrin

We got temps up to 50 but my husband noticed that one of the pumps is not working. Could this have been caused by the valve closings we did? I hope not.

Dave_22

That pump HAS to run!!! If it doesn't, no wonder your freezin!! I haven't read this whole post yet, but does the boiler turn on and off a lot?? If it does, it may be because none of your water is making it out into the secondary system. Has that pump ever ran??? Your piping maybe wrong, but if that pump doesn't run, you'll never get heat!!! You could have a simple wiring problem.

Carrin

pump not working

We dont know if that pump ever ran we just realized this morning that it wasnt and were concerned that our changes might have caused it. I dont see how this could be true.

I called a local heating co recommended by someone here. They related that they have had to fix systems put together by our contractors heating guy. They have also had to fix unworking systems installed by another local heating co. But they prefer working with standard systems and encouraged us not to pay until the builder worked this out. In the meantime we are going to get someone in to give an independent evaluation of the system.

It is very discouraging to have to deal with these situations. How does one find an expert who really knows what he is doing. Two weeks ago this issue was simply a matter of being patient while the system was installed. I had no idea what they were doing. Im am sure they know more that I do based on experience alone. But it sure doesnt seem that way when a little common sense indicated a problem. NONE of the pipes going into the manifold were even remotely warm. How can there be heat? MAGIC? They looked at this 3 times and left indicating heat would come. I dont understand how one can do this.

Sorry for complaining... We have been quite frustrated. Thanks for all the advice. Without it we would be completely in the dark. And who knows how much money we would have thrown away.



Sorry for complaining about this.

Dave_22

I don't think your changes had absolutely nothing to do with it! It makes more sense that if you never got heat to that manifold, then that pump was probably not running. My opinion is that your biggest problem may be a wiring issue. That pump should be running if your thermostat is calling for heat!!!

eleft_4

carrin

"But they prefer working with standard systems"

Any idea what this means?

al

Carrin

Prabably not radiant or hydroair I assume -- or maybe they just didnt want to get involved again in a problem like this since they had done it before. The man was quite understanding and assured me that my contractor would want to resolve this to preserve his reputation. Whether we want to continue with this guy will be determined. We are under no contract with them. The good thing is given that we havent paid we might have some leverage to get this resolved.

Paul Pollets

Budereus Piping

The R2107 control should be piped with a 4 way mixing valve for the radiant zone and will need the "Mixing Valve" card installed in the computer. The control will do a low mix temp circuit, a high temp circuit and the indirect DHW tank. Primary/secondary is rarely used, unless a tekmar computer is installed, in lieu of the 2107.

Buderus should illustrate piping schematics in their installation instructions. (Like Viessmann) Doing so would likely avoid these types of piping errors.

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joel_19

carrin

It's not that hard to find a real pro. There are plenty of us out there. I don't understand why they would do primary/secondary at all when your boiler is quite capable of using a 4 way valve as others have suggested. There is no liscence required for heating and airconditioning in the state of Mass . There is a plumbing liscence and then there is an oil burning liscence , but niether of these cover an actual heating system for a house. In other words the plumbing inspection covers the gas line and water hook up to the house and the oil liscence does basically the same thing for oil. However there is no inspection process to insure that a system will actually work or be graded on the amount of comfort and efficency it will achieve.
I've gotta ask , you made a couple statements about not knowing how many zones your getting or what is included exactly. Then um how do you know if your getting what you payed for? The installer should of had thier system consultant/designer sit down with you, review your wants/needs, budget and options at that point they would design and price a system to meet them. That's what a true pro would have done.

Carrin

If you have never gone thru this process then as a homeowner has little idea what to expect. The builder sold my husband on the idea of radiant heating. We did not know much about it but felt that it sounded like a nice alternative to the FHA system we have now. We knew up front what the cost to install in the concrete slab. The rest we had no idea. After the floor was poured we saw nothing of the heating guy until his son wheeled in the boiler 2 months later. And so far we have not received any pricing information though we requested it. Since our builder moved on to another project he has been busy and we have been out of the picture. I think if we had hired someone ourselves then this situation would be different.

Carrin

We have never gone thru this process had little idea what to expect. The builder sold my husband on the idea of radiant heating. We did not know much about it but felt that it sounded like a nice alternative to the FHA system we have now. We knew up front what the cost to install in the concrete slab. The rest we had no idea. After the floor was poured we saw nothing of the heating guy until his son wheeled in the boiler 2 months later. And so far we have not received any pricing information though we requested it. Since our builder moved on to another project he has been busy and we have been out of the picture. I think if we had hired someone ourselves then this situation would be different.

Carrin

We have heat now.

We spoke to someone locally and he indicated that he had heard of problems with this installer. But he said the best course was to work with the builder to resolve things. We did contact the builder and he agreed to look into this ASAP. My husband would like the bill before we make a choice to change. Also some input from someone who knows what they are doing.

So today the heating guy showed up. He was not too friendly when he walked in. I explained to him the situation with the heat and what we did to get heat to the floors. I showed him the pump that was not working. He did not believe it was broken. He argued that I had no clue how to understand the primary/secondary system that was set up. I insisted that the pump was not working and showed him how the water was flowing before we closed the valves.

Twenty minutes later he agreed that the pump did not work. He has replaced this with a larger pump and we do have nice heat now. The pump is very loud though. I did not speak with him further on the setup because I didnt want to create anymore tension. He was impressed that we were able to pinpoint the problem and seemed surprised at the diagram I showed him of our current system as he designed it (I redid the diagram similar to the suggestion diagram shown here so I could compare them easier). He demanded to know who had done it. I said I had. I dont think he is the type to take any suggestions. He definetly thinks he knows what he is doing and thinks his way is the way.
He tried to throw a lot of jargon at me but it was nice not to feel too intimidated by it. I could tell he was impressed by the questions I asked him. And being correct about the pump helped.

Thanks for the help and knowledge. Hopefully we can get the billing stuff taken care of and the system evaulated.

Mark Eatherton1

Glad to hear it!!

Unfortunately, it also sounds like you have a ways to go before the battle is completely over.

As it pertains to pumps, most unqualified technicians feel that the right pump for the job is the one they have on their truck, right wrong or indifferent, so long as it fits between the flanges:-)

"If a little pump does a little good, then a LOT of pump will do a LOT of good..." Wrong way of thinking. Now you're stuck with the noise issues. Make them make it right. Hydronic heat is SUPPOSED to be virtually silent.

Good luck and keep us posted.

ME

Weezbo

Hear ,,Hear. *~/:)

the mark of a fine system...is not how much noise it can make ...its the peace of mind knowing it is working to provide you comfort and an evening around the Home n hearth in a healthy environment............i am inclined to agree that going from no recirc to a new Larger pump that makes racket doesnt sound like it is about to convince any of us that the guy actually is considering your comfort at all.........................................................Heres the part of comfort that the controls are engaged in maintaining a close proximity of balance from day to day,seriously the electrical control has to have a "plan" or "stradgey"in how to accomplish this...and it has to take into account that you would like the investment in the whole works to live long enough to make some sort of contribution to your finacial comfort...you may be very well off and having not had radiant heat be unaware of that particular "feature" of a system properly installed...

S Ebels

This post............

Is a classic lesson on how not to treat a customer. It's also an example of practices and methods that flat out don't work being utilized by someone who apparently doesn't have a clue as to how it should be done. Just read "between the lines" and notice all the things that she is dealing with beyond the low/no heat situation.

She has every reason to be highly upset or at least very dismayed about the whole process. Installers like her's give our whole trade a bad name and we should do everything we can to help them get up to speed. If they refuse to learn, then we should do everything we can to get them out of the trade. It's called "tough love." Either learn it and do it right or find another occupation. I know this sounds more than a little harsh but I'm tired of these types dragging this wonderful trade through the manure pit! It's a bad reflection on all who stay abreast of what's going on and do it right the first time.

One of the posts brought up the question of an inspector "catching" the faults in the system design. Not going to happen. The only things the codes address are safety issues and whether the system will heat the house at design temps. No codes that I have seen get into the nitty gritty of proper piping and pumping practices. Only one of the mechanical inspectors that I have ever dealt with would know what he was looking at when he saw this poor woman's system. All the rest of the guys I have encountered,, state and local wouldn't know a proper piping setup if it bit them in the hind end. Even if an inspector did notice the incorrect piping, it would be beyond his authority to make the heating guy change it. There is no hope in the code direction, only in the skill and knowledge of the designer/installer who in most residential jobs is the same person.

Caselli

Payments and liens

You said above that you do not know if the contractor is paying this subcontractor or not.

You need to know this.

Your contractor needs to itemize for you what you are being billed for. For work of any subcontractors or tradesmen, or for purchases from suppliers, he should be providing you with copies of paid invoices and lien waivers.

This will protect you against any of the above coming after you if they in fact are NOT paid. You are responsible for the work they do to improve your property. Your receipts and lien waivers are your defense against having to pay AGAIN for this work or facing a lien placed against the property.

This may arise if the contractor does not make payments to them for any reason.

eleft_4

This should help you to understand how primary/secondary operates. This is a condensed system, two zone off of the secondary. It has variable speed injection outdoor reset, boiler protection controlled by a Tekmar 365. This allows the water temperature to go up or down on a curve, by varying the speed of the injection pump, set to equal the building heat loss. Boiler protection is achieved in the same manner. There other ways using temperature control motorized valves in place of variable speed injection but the primary/secondary is similar in respect to water flow

Carrin

We asked the contractor about the lien waivers at the beginning of the project. He indicated that he did not use them. He would do a significant amount of work first and then we would pay him. He trusted us and we trusted him. We dont know him as a friend but given that he lives in the next small town over and his wife attends the same church as we, I would think he might think twice before he got a bad reputation. I think he is fairly trustworthy and well meaning. He may be ignorant or misinformed on some building pratices though. We did have a disagreement on the insulation which we are waiting for them to fix. I know we havent convincd him that it is necessary but he is going to make the change since we have persisted in requesting it. Having gone through this process in this manner I can see now why a contract with full specifications and then accounting would be a preferrable method of business. We get what we want and know what to expect. He knows that we are happy and trust him. Without this we feel we want to trust him but have doubts about the bills and have absolutely no idea about the cost of materials and such. My plumber and electrician provide a matierials list and labor costs. So yes knowing the costs up front would be preferred.

Kal Row

carrin: it appears the builder knows little about radiant...

so if you are putting any type of wood flooring on top , make sure the uninstalled flooring is just laying on the heated floor for 3-4 weeks before being installed

- It seem that you are getting you are getting a “baptism by fire”, and stuck with needing a rapid education, however, from reading your posts – it appears that you are more than up to the task, so go for it!!!

www.radiantpanelassociation.org - might b able to help
Radiant Panel Association, PO Box 717, Loveland, CO 80539 (970) 613-0100

Find your local supply house – lots of times the have install books from manufactures that they can give out

And there are lots of links off the “virtual trade show” link on the left above – and lots of manufactures work with educated HomeOwner’s

As for Buderus – you can find their manuals here
http://www.buderus.net/Default.aspx?tabid=47

Carrin

Thankyou

I wanted to thank Rick McGrath for coming out to our house this last weekend to look over our system. He gave up time with his family on a beautiful afternoon to help us out. He pointed out the problems with the current piping and helped my husband fix the programming. Now that we know what is wrong with it we can make steps to get it fixed. My husband will speak with the builder tomorrow to let him know where the piping is incorrect. At that point we can decide (I hope) whether to continue with the current heating installer or not. He will have to agree to fix the piping first though.

The builder said that the current bill is up at about 7k for the Buderus, its installation, and the installation of the radiant floor heat in a 24x29 ft floor. They also ran the tubes for 3 radiators to the upper floor but have not installed them further (because we are waiting on drywall). We already paid for the radiant tubes installed in the basement slab when the concrete was poured. I think that this might be a reasonable amount to pay them. We have yet to add the waterheater, hydroair thing, and the 3 radiators.

Someone did bring up the question of wood flooring. Part of the room above the radiant floor will be tile the other wide pine. I understand the issue of acclimating the wood. Is there any problem using wide pine with radiant?

Thank you everyone so much for your help.

Mark Eatherton1

I told you...

we find resolution for your problem...

Glad it's working out.

BTW, as for wide pank pine, you can expect it to shrink, and show more crack than a service plumber. Pine is NOT a real stable wood. That said, it will work just fine for delivering heat. Just expect cracks to show up, and you'll be fine. I think the hardwood flooring people refer to it as "character".

ME

Carrin

wood choice

Is maple or oak a better choice. Part of our house is over 200 yrs old and has wide pine floors. We put in a new wide pine floor in one room. It does dent and scratch easy but it looks nice. No cracks though. Are the cracks associated with proximity to the radiant heat source? Or is it more to do with moisture content of the wood?

Delmas_2

Wood choice

Carrin,
Hope you are on the way to getting this system fixed.
On the wide pine floors, it really depends on what part of the tree the wood is cut from and how it has been dried as to whether it will work.
Same with other woods.
An excellent supplier of wide plank floors in pine, oak, maple and other species is Carlisle Restoration Lumber in Carlisle NH. They have no problem using their product with radiant heat.
Call Glen Ranagan at Carlisle Restoration Lumber 1-800-595-9663 and chat with him. He'll help you figure out the answers to your wood questions. Tell him that Delmas Gehman from Lebanon PA told you to call!
We build high end homes and do alot off radaint floor heat.
We have used their wood floors a number of times with excellent success.
Great people!
Delmas

Mark Eatherton1

Wood...

is a hyrdoscopic thing. It absorbs it and swells, it expells it and shrinks. Sometimes it does both and warps and cups. THe biggest key is to make sure the wood is as dry as it can be given back ground humidity before you put it down. Also make sure that the building and substrates are as dry as they can be prior to installation. Once installed, controlling the humidity will alleviate the shrinkage. Wood will swell and shrink without the benefit of radiant heat. Radiant heat just seems to magnify it.

Hardwoods are more stable than soft(pine) woods too. The smaller the plank, the smaller the shrinkage.

ME

Ragu

Carrin

Just read the entire Carrin saga...I'm exhausted! Also I'm extremely impressed with the high level of troubleshooting advice and compassion; nice work everyone. I'm new to The Wall ("Grumpy" sent me here), but not new to radiant. We have seen situations similar to Carrin's, here in Maine; almost always it is caused by a lack of design and installation experience. Also a lot of systems bought off the Web don't work. Last one I looked at needs the slab jackhammered up! Congrats to all!