Installing new Steamview \"low profile\" radiator

Paul E.

I am helping a friend with a 2nd floor bathroom remodel. Bathroom is 5 x 7 ft and very space limited. They currently have a small cast iron radiator about 24"L x 12"H. It is on a two pipe steam system. The position of it is under the window. With the radiator cover on, knees knock into it when sitting on the commode, and it takes up space under the pedestal sink opposite the toilet, so we are seeking a "low-profile" radiator. Looking through Runtal's stuff online, I was linked to www.steamradiators.com and saw their "Steamview" model. I'm thinking of replacing the old radiator with a 16"H x 36"L Steamview radiator (3800 BTU). The floor piping for the old radiator has what I think is a steam trap -- on the lower right where the condensate exits. Hard to tell but appears to be labeled "MOUAT CLEVID O". I assume this should be replaced, but with what brand/where to buy/how to size it?

We will be installing a SunTouch (by Watts) electric heating mat under the floor tile (5ft x 5ft tiled area = 25 sq ft). I have it in my house and it's great for keeping the feet warm. Is this something that should be considered a primary heat source for the room, or should we still rely on the steam radiator to do most of the room heating?

Thanks.

Steamhead

That's a Mouat Vapor system

As far as I know, the Steamview ought to work OK with this system. The Mouat fitting is probably a water-seal unit rather than a thermostatic trap although Mouat did make the latter type of unit. Take a pic and post it here if you're not sure. If it's a water-seal I'd strongly recommend re-using it.

The Cleveland area is loaded with Mouat systems. Our resident expert on these systems is Gerry Gill- maybe he will see this and offer his opinion.

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gerry gill

It does sould like a water seal trap,

least the ones i see say that..the thermostatic ones usually said the full ''mouat vapor heating company'' title..you will most likely have to put an orifice with quite small a hole in it if you use that radiator..even if your existing mouat radiator valve works, it will be set to open to far for that radiator..its not a radiator issue, tho I just made it sound that way.Its a radiator inlet valve issue..if you have a mouat water seal trap you really dont want steam all the way across that radiator as it only takes about one ounce of pressure to blow thru the water seal...steamhead can help you with orifice sizing for your valve..if you put a new valve on then you will definitly have to orifice it down with some copper or brass shimstock..i bet the orifice wouldn't even be 1/8th inch for a radiator that small...course if you got a thermostatic trap, then no worries ;-)

Paul E.

Attached are pictures of the inlet and outlet valves. The inlet valve appears to allow adjustment of the amount of heat, it has a wood handle lever that adjusts from "off" to full "on". On the boiler there's a gizmo on the side labeled "Vapor Stat" from the "Minnesota Honeywell" corporation. So I guess this is a Mouat Vapor system?

The original radiator is 3 sections, overall about 28"L and the body is 8"H. It is fairly flat and stamped "Arco convector". Sorry, I don't have a picture handy...

We checked measurements again and as it turns out we need to put in a smaller radiator more like the size of the original. Now I am thinking of a 16"H x 24" Steamview.

Can I re-pipe the inlet side to be lower-left instead of top-left, or does that screw up distribution of steam through the radiator?

Thanks for the help guys!

Steamhead

That's a water seal on the return

not a trap. I'd keep that water seal if that were my system, since a thermostatic trap has a bigger opening for air to vent thru which would make the bathroom heat up long before anything else. But even if you had a trap, it would still be Vapor.

On Vapor, the inlet should be at the top of the radiator. But especially on a small rad like that, you can pipe the inlet at the top and the return at the bottom of the same side of the radiator. If this is impossible, you can pipe the inlet to the bottom as a last resort.

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gerry gill

where is the stub for the return fitting?

is it still in the old radiator? was it thrown out? can you even remove it from the old radiator? you'll probably end up with a thermostatic trap..easiest way out..you can use a standard radiator inlet valve then..mouat water seal 's self drained between cycles, allowing for a full bore 1/2'' air flow when the next cycle starts so chose any radiator trap you desire, except a hoffman 17c which is a real dog with venting air...like steamhead says tho, if you can use that water seal trap try to..no moving parts, cant beat that.

John Shea

Hi gerry,

just curious, you say that the Hoffman 17c is a "real dog" as far as venting air. It's been recommended to me to use these as a replacement for a few old Webster 512H traps. Was this a bad recommendation?

Thanks

gerry gill

I havent had the chance to test a webster trap,

cause i haven't been able to get my paws on one..but ive tested old mouats, ideals, dunham#1,hoffman 17c&d,marsh, sarco,monash,mepco, illinois, and barnes and jones, and all pass air at a very respectable rate, except the hoffman 17c..for example. at 2 ounces pressure the hoffman 17c passes .85 cubic feet of air per minute, while the mepco (who bought both dunham bush and warren webster) #1r which is an exact dimenional replacement for the warren webster 02 series passes air at the rate of 1.4 cubic feet per minute at 2 ounces..i think if you replace your warren webster traps with hoffman they will be slow to heat..now look at barnes and jones #122 at 2 ounces, 1.8 cubic feet per minute..and it cost less..a win win..hope this helps you..i used to think radiator traps were radiator traps were nothing but radiator traps, till i started looking at them as air vents..which is what led me into testing them..if you have a good webster trap that you would like to have me test, contact me and i'll get you my address and you can ups or fedex it to me and i'll test it for you..i'm working on a chart/listing of this data..i'll even send it back..by the way, barnes and jones replacement cage units are great and they list them for your webster traps..

John Shea

If you'll return it, I'd be happy to send a working Webster...

In fact, I understand you're in OHIO? I'm just north of Detroit and will be driving down to South Carolina over Easter holiday. We'll be going right through Cleveland, I believe. Maybe I could drop it off, then pick it up on my way back (7 days later) if you're not too far off the beaten path. Either way, I can get it to you. Let me know what you think.

gerry gill

sure,

either way..i'd love to keep expanding the list..testing new traps is easy, i just buy them..testing old traps is harder, i have to be able to get my hands on them..even if a customer has one i've not tested, they are always timid about taking it out cause they fear a pipe breaking and so forth..understandable..i'll email you..