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Problem with Weil McLain Stem System
Andy T
Member Posts: 6
In December I had my gas valve on my Weil McLain steam boiler replaced by Keyspan. A short while later when the boiler started to fire I heard a clicking sound several times before the flame would ignite. Keyspan returned and cleaned the flame sensor. That lasted for a week or two, last week it happened again. This time they replaced the flame sensor. Now again the same clicking noise has returned. This does not happen every time it calls for heat, but intermittenly. Does this sound normal ? I feel I have to call them back again but do not feel comfortable with their expertise. Does anyone have an opinion or point me in the right direction ? Thanks
0
Comments
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THE CLICKING
THE CLICKING YOU HEAR IS THE SPARK IGNITION. THAT SPARK LIGHTS A PILOT THEN THE MAIN BURNER. THE ACTUAL TERM IS INTERMITTENT SPARK PILOT. ITS NORMAL.
STEVE0 -
Why was the gas valve replaced?
> In December I had my gas valve on my Weil McLain
> steam boiler replaced by Keyspan. A short while
> later when the boiler started to fire I heard a
> clicking sound several times before the flame
> would ignite. Keyspan returned and cleaned the
> flame sensor. That lasted for a week or two, last
> week it happened again. This time they replaced
> the flame sensor. Now again the same clicking
> noise has returned. This does not happen every
> time it calls for heat, but intermittenly. Does
> this sound normal ? I feel I have to call them
> back again but do not feel comfortable with their
> expertise. Does anyone have an opinion or point
> me in the right direction ? Thanks
0 -
Why was the gas valve replaced?
> In December I had my gas valve on my Weil McLain
> steam boiler replaced by Keyspan. A short while
> later when the boiler started to fire I heard a
> clicking sound several times before the flame
> would ignite. Keyspan returned and cleaned the
> flame sensor. That lasted for a week or two, last
> week it happened again. This time they replaced
> the flame sensor. Now again the same clicking
> noise has returned. This does not happen every
> time it calls for heat, but intermittenly. Does
> this sound normal ? I feel I have to call them
> back again but do not feel comfortable with their
> expertise. Does anyone have an opinion or point
> me in the right direction ? Thanks
0 -
Why was the gas valve replaced?
Do you have an Intermittent Pilot Spark Ignition system? If you do then the the clicking amy be the spark before the pilot lights from the spark. Sometimes it does not light right away and you will get a couple of clicks before it lights.0 -
Almost sounds
like a possible grounding problem at the rectification circuit. Is it possible the pilot size has been reduced, causing a poor dlame reading. Wadda ya say Tim?0 -
Boiler Guy that is possible
I would like to try and find out what exact system he has and then we can go from there. It is definetly a possible poor ground or intermittent ground which will cause the relay in the module to click in and out, That could have also caused the gas valve to burn out from rapid cycling on and off.0 -
Problem with Weil McLin Steam System
Tim and Boiler Guy
I have a Weil McLain Model Number EG 55 PI with intermittent ignition system. The reason why Keyspan changed the gas valve was that I smelled gas which I thought was residual, but when they checked they said there was a leak. As I am writing you back I hear the system go on run about 30 sec then go off and on again. It does not do that always. I do hear a buzzing sound coming from the transformer when the system is not running, is that okay ? There is a Flame Sensor G 60 Pak 1 where the attached wires run to the gas valve. Where would I look for the poor ground ? Or maybe with the additional information you have another idea. Thanks0 -
G60
What is the rest of the number? How old is the system? Is there any rusting or corrossion around the wiring connections or screw attachments to the G60 mounting plates?0 -
Problem with Weil McLain System
Boiler Guy The System was installed in 1973. The only numbers I see on the flame sensor rectangular box are
G 60 Pak 1. There are six wires attached with spade and lugs ( I think thats what they call them ) 3 blacks to the gas valve 1 red to the transformer 1 red to the on/off switch box 1 white to the flame sensor along with one thicker red wire from the bottom of the module. seven wires in all. Thanks for your input.0 -
That is
an old timer. In my neck of the woods those controls have not been available for 17+ years. I suggest having your ignition systm upgraded to H/well S8610U or equivalent. Unfortunately, the "system" requires 4 matching components -pilot/ignitor assy, silicone ignition lead, ignition module,propritory gas valve and some control wiring modifications . Penn/Johnson does make a retofit G60 control but I am not sure if it would be a direct swap. Tim might know better.
Your service contractor should have checked the pilot flame signal at the G60 to determine if it was working properly prior to changing out the gas valve. THe gas leak you spoke of earlier was probably caused by a malfunction in the G60 to start with. Remember - this is only and "educated guess" though, without the benefit of observing your system. Hope this helps.0 -
Andy
Check this site http://cgproducts.johnsoncontrols.com/cat_pdf/1925005.pdf Does that look like your part?0 -
Boiler Guy and Tim
The G600AX-1 looks similiar to the one I have. There is a looped wire on the top of mine, where this one has it on the bottom. Also there are two red wires that come out of the top of mine and connect to the transformer. I guess they made some modifications along the way. Would replacing that part correct the problem or will I have to replace everything you listed in your previous response ? I would like to know as much as possible when I call my gas provider back, rather than have them guess at what the problem is. I had three different mechanics in it seems that they have very limited knowledge of this system.0 -
The G600 AX-1 is okay as a replacement
The only numbers I see on the flame sensor rectangular box are G 60 Pak 1.
IS THIS MODULE MOUNTED ON THE GAS VALVE? OR IS IT CABINET MOUNTED?
There are six wires attached with spade and lugs ( I think thats what they call them ) 3 blacks to the gas valve
THE GAS VALVES USED WITH THESE ARE DUAL SEATED VALVES SO ONE OF THE WIRES GOES TO THE PILOT VALVE, ANOTHER TO THE MAIN VALVE AND THE OTHER IS THE GROUND BACK TO THE TRANSFORMER.
1 red to the transformer
THAT IS THE 24 VOLT HOT WAIRE.
1 red to the on/off switch box
I HAVE NO IDEA WHY IT WOULD GO TO AN ON/OFF SWITCH BOX
1 white to the flame sensor along
THAT IS YOUR SENSOR WIRE FOR YOUR MICROAMP SIGNAL BACK TO THE MODULE.
with one thicker red wire from the bottom of the module. seven wires in all.
THAT IS THE IGNITION CABLE TO PROVIDE SPARK TO THE PILOT/
THE CORRECT WIRING FOR THIS IS AS FOLLOWS:
24 VOLTS HOT TO TERMINAL #2
TERMINAL #1 TO THE PILOT VALVE
TERMINAL #3 TO THE MAIN VALVE
SENSOR WIRE TO #4
#5 AND #6 MAY BE GROUNDED WITH A SEPERATE WIRE OR IT MAY RUN BACK TO THE COMMON SIDE OF THE TRANSFORMER.
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Take a piece of wire
18 guage (thermostat wire) and put some ellectrical clips on it. Connect one end to the gas valve and the other to module GR terminals if you have them or to a terminal #5 or #6 which one or the other may be ground.
What is the make and model of the gas valve they installed?
By the way what is your location, we may be able to connect you up with someone other than Keyspan for service.0 -
More things to checkDoes the white
> 18 guage (thermostat wire) and put some
> ellectrical clips on it. Connect one end to the
> gas valve and the other to module GR terminals if
> you have them or to a terminal #5 or #6 which one
> or the other may be ground.
>
> What is the make
> and model of the gas valve they installed?
>
> By
> the way what is your location, we may be able to
> connect you up with someone other than Keyspan
> for service.
sensor wire have a linen type coating on it or not? Is it stranded wire? Are the connections clean and tight at both ends?0 -
More things to checkDoes the white
> 18 guage (thermostat wire) and put some
> ellectrical clips on it. Connect one end to the
> gas valve and the other to module GR terminals if
> you have them or to a terminal #5 or #6 which one
> or the other may be ground.
>
> What is the make
> and model of the gas valve they installed?
>
> By
> the way what is your location, we may be able to
> connect you up with someone other than Keyspan
> for service.
sensor wire have a linen type coating on it or not? Is it stranded wire? Are the connections clean and tight at both ends?0 -
More things to check
Very important: Do you have 24VAC between terminals 2 and 5/6. 22Vac or less can give you problems.
Does the white sensor wire have a linen type coating on it or not? Is it stranded wire? Are the connections clean and tight at both ends? Are there any nicks, cuts or burnt spots on the sensor wire? Is the flame sensor fully enveloped in the pilot flame? By what you have described I think your problem is in that sensor circuit.
Tim, I am pretty certain the PAK model was a stand alone device.0 -
The PAK and
any other module could be cabinet mounted (with a seperate plate that fit on the back of the module) or it could without the plate be mounted on the Johnson Controls Dual Valve I believe of the top of my head it was a VLV49 valve.0 -
Tim
You are correct, of course. What I was referring to was the original PAK model did not require a mounting plate. The plate mount was PJ's answer to solving multiple applications with one basic control. Are the GAX600's still readily available? Most of my suppliers only carry the G67 and up electronics only.0 -
Boiler Guy and Tim
I do not see any name or markings on the gas valve. That G600AX is mounted on the cabinet. I live in Staten Island New York. You can e-mail at nippydi88@earthlink.net. Thanks0 -
Hope some
of my info helped. Good Luck.0 -
Boiler Guy
G600 AX readily available here in New England. We have a lot of equipment with that control system. Or you can use the G779 Universal replacement.0 -
G779
Pretty much every thing has gone electronic here. Less costly I guess. It still amazes me how many practices and components are so "regional".0 -
Thahks everyone for all your information.0 -
Tim, if it matters,
Andy did mention that there is a white wire loop on one end of the module. I would assume this is the damper jumper plug, in which case there would be a constant 24 volt hot wire and a switched 24 volt wire to the module. Off the top of my head I don't remember which number is which.0 -
weil mclain eg 40 spdn
My weil mclain was not lighting up and when i tapped the wire that runs from the front (top) to the back (top) it starts up.
The wire ends at the back in a box that sits on the vent. Can
anyone explain why this is happening and how I can fix this problem.
Thank You.
Dave.0 -
Could the box be a vent damper?
IIRC, the vent damper sends a signal back to the boiler indicating that it's open or closed in response to a command from the boiler that it open. If the wiring insulation has worn out somewhere, perhaps the return signal is being shorted/grounded out somewhere. I'd examine the wire for wear areas.0 -
Ground
I've also found that over periods of time the Weil McClain's green ground wire that goes from the transformer to the electrical box as a ground causes a problem and needs to be clipped. It seems as though it acts as a redundant ground and causes a problem. Have spoken to WM techs and they agree that it sometimes causes a problem and that clipping it solves it very often. Just disconnect it while testing the boiler and see what happens. If all is okay while disconnected, then clip it and leave it alone. Anthony0 -
STOP!!!!!! Verify what you have before you proceed. Sometimes and overly agressive technician will oversize the pilot oriface while cleaning it. The gas/air mixture needs to be between 10-14% for ignition. An oversized orivace changes everything. Get on your knees and see if the spark stops when the pilot finally lights. If it does, change the oriface before proceeding(much cheaper). Also, some of the Johnson controls are set up for LP(one time trial for ignition(LX-1). It looks exactly the same as the AX-1 but wiring is different enough to destroy your transformer and definitely your stat. Try the oriface first. If that doesn't solve your problem than brand me a YOOPER.0 -
Inserting myself in this topic with new, related question
Hi, everyone. I've tried following this thread, but it doesn't match my situation. Still, the question I have is very similar.
I have a 2-year old Viessmann Vitogas 50 ECD 115 with a Honeywell VR8204m standard, intermittent pilot gas valve; a Q3451a pilot/sensor; and a S8600H1006 ignition control.
This year when I was cleaning it, I replaced a burner tube that had been smushed when I got the boiler, new. In the process, I disconnected the pilot gas tubing. I initially tried reseating that tubing without replacing the compression fittings. Bad idea, I know. Since then, I've gotten extra 1/4 OD aluminum pilot tubing and new breakaway-ferrule pilot nuts.
Anyway, whereas it had seemed to me that the boiler had run okay since installation, it now wasn't igniting and burning well. A small compression fitting leak at the ignitor was probably part of the problem, and was pulling the chamber flame toward the ignitor, I believe.
Skip forward to today. I have gotten myself a manometer and adjusted both the pilot and burner flames. As per the manual, the manifold is running at 3.5" WC and the pilot outlet at around 5"-7" WC (factory specs). I had to turn the pilot valve adjustment way down. I don't know if the pilot had been set too high to begin with or if something's changed with the valve, but it seems to be running at a steady pressure now.
In between season startup and these adjustments, by the way, I also used emery cloth to clean the igitor/sensor. The spark had improved upon doing this, at least before I reassembled everything. The ignitor had been burned somewhat before the pressure adjustments. However, the ignitor insulator is still fine, and I don't think this piece is at all broken.
Problem is, the ignition is still lousy. I've messed with the set screw for the pilot flame, making very minute adjustments to get it to a point where there is only one or a couple of sparks before the pilot lights, but it's very inconsistent. I'll find a flame setting that seems to light right on the first call for heat, but on the next cycle it will click (spark) endlessly or light after many spark clicks. Then, when the valve opens to the manifold, there's a whoosh when the burner tubes ignite.
Sometimes this little explosion in the chamber triggers the boiler to shut down and try again, often several times in a row. I don't know if it's affecting the flame rollout or blocked vent switches, or if the ignitor/sensor is somehow sending a signal to the control that things aren't right. I confess I don't understand how the sensor in the ignitor actually works.
Once the boiler ignites correctly, it cycles appropriately and the draft hood opens and closes as it should.
I've seen in this thread that grounding can be a problem for intermittent ignition. I've checked the ground at the boiler terminals, and it appears to be good. The controller is then grounded to the boiler body, and a shielded ground wire runs from the controller to the ignitor. This wire has lost some of its woven shielding down by the ignitor - it's frayed simply from being connected and disconnected a few times - but the wire is definitely solid. I think the ground is good.
My question is, can anyone tell from my descriptions what my problem might be? I figure that if I replaced the controller, valve, and ignitor, it ought to work correctly, but of course I don't want to do that.
[BTW, I've tried testing for 24V at both the pilot valve and main valve terminals during a cycle, and I don't find a problem (I do not, however, have a meter that gives me full accuracy at 24V - I just know it's over 20V).]
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Josh
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hey josh, tr changing the oiface. A lage main burner may be pulling a large pilot away from the flame sensor. Also, try to adjust the main burners by limiting the amount of air through the tubes(if available)0 -
RE: Intermittent Pilot Problem
Hi, Darin. I've been thinking the orifice may be a problem. I'm definitely getting a lazy, yellow pilot flame. I've adjusted gas flow to the burners (and pilot), but I have no way of controlling air flow at this point. There is no open air source anywhere near the boiler, but plenty of overall air exchange in my basement. I'm going to test my draft pull, too, although it seems to be strong.
Josh0 -
A confession
I've actually determined that I somehow lost the pilot orifice, which would explain all of my problems. Once I finally determined the correct part number, it appears the orifice just slips in and out of the pilot burner. I've ordered a new one, so I hope I'm at the end of this thread for me.
Thanks, Josh0 -
Weil Mclain HE 5 ignition problems
I am having an ignition problem with my HE 5. Gas fired. I notice that at times the 1st attempt to glow the ignitor fails though LED indicates ignitor is in this cycle. The boiler usuall fires on th e2nd attempt. Every two days or so, the system goes into "lockdown" and the power has to be cycled to get going again. Two days later it usually happens again. Any thoughts? I have replaced the ignitor and still have problems.0 -
Weil Mclain HE 5 ignition problems
Please help with one other question....
How is succesful ignition sensed on this system. I do not se any form of feedback device, i.e. temp probe to issue signal back to module during firing cycle. Is some type of current sensed through the ignitor and sent back for processing by module? I cannot figure how the three failed attempts leading to my "lockdown" condition is detected.
Thanks
Jon salnick@comcast.net
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Joe Brix what is
the number on the electronic control on your HE? I need to know that so I can possibly give you a solution. To answer your question about igniters thay can be used as both an igniter and a sensor. In some cases they are good igniters but not very good sensors. The solution sometimes is to add a seperate sensor at the last burner in the gas firing sequence and eliminate the igniter as a sensor. Get me the module number and we will see if that is a possibility.0
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