burner rating vs nozzle size

thfurnitureguy_2

My Burnham steam boiler is rated 5.6 GPH and I have a 4.00 60deg. B ct nozzle. Should they match in the Gph? System runs 1hour for 3 degrees. Builds 0 psi at end of run with new gauge. Uses 140 gal per week on average oil. Mid size commercial building with 6 apts. and 30'x250'of retail. I guess its hard to tell without hard # on heat loss etc. any rule of thumb? My thought is that it is running under fired (never builds pressure) Am I Simmering When I should be steaming? thanks T.

RonWHC

You need to know

the oil pressure the fuel unit is supplying the nozzle. W/O my nozzle charts, I would say you need approx 200# for that 4.00 nozzle to deliver 5.6. I like your persistence.

thfurnitureguy_2

Its becoming an obsession, Where can I find the pump pressure of the Beckett burner? Is it an adjustment or a pump size etc?

RonWHC

Call your oil supplier.

All of the techs have pressure gages. Look over his shoulder.

RonWHC

Call your oil supplier.

His techs have gages and charts. Look over his shoulder.

thfurnitureguy_2

I guess thats a good Idea. I did look at the mfg rating on the pump 140psi and the nozzle discription matches the one on the plate. Can they be messed with? or can you trust the Mfg. setting? My problem is the tech who came out missed some major problems with this system I don't think I'm smart enough yet to have him out. Thanks for all the help. This site has been excellent!

soot_seeker_2

this is handy.. attached

this is handy.. attached

soot_seeker_2

one more time - attached

one more time - attached

thfurnitureguy_4

Thanks for the chart I can make a test gauge. I assume I masure the pressure between the pump and the nozzle. Where is the regulator? Still not clear on where the adjustment is if there is one. Thanks

Fred Harwood

Careful

You don't necessarily want to increase pump pressure to match boiler input. If your burner is designed for 140 psi, then get a nozzle that fires at the correct rate at that pressure. Also, well matched systems don't build pressure. They work well under one psi, often at about 6 to 10 ounces of pressure. As Dan notes in his books (available from this site), building pressure wastes energy. Do you have heating problems?

thfurnitureguy_4

I know I scare you guys. I am a checker before I become a wrecker. My heating problems so far have been a condensation pump we paid $1000.00 to have fixed that I removed because it was not needed. 2 leaking Hoffman 75 vents when 2 sets of 5 Gorten #2 were needed to vent 2 lengths of 3" pipe 300' long, and now I find that I have no U seal, to stop the steam from crossing over at the return Y ,and shutting off the vents on the other main. This comes after Paying my local guys $3000+ to inspect and fix the system prior to our purchace of this building last October. They were the ones who had been doing the maintence and the install of the new returns etc. for the prior owner. Soooooo I figure the burner is the next thing in line to learn about. ps all of the above I have learned about on the Wall. My repairs so far are working as expected I could not have done it with our you guys. "Oh yea" the building was hot near the boiler and cold at the front, with one side heating 5 min. behind the other. Thanks for All the good advice! T.

Unknown

Boiler Rating

Based on the information you supplied, you presumably have a Burnham V905A boiler installed. This can be configured with several oil burners based on installer preference. The two most popular burners seem to be the Beckett CF-800 and the Carlin 301-CRD. The Beckett usually would be congigured with a 4.50 - 45P nozzle while the Carlin would have a 4.5 - 80SS nozzle. Both of these would operate at 150 psi of pump pressure on high fire to give you an equivaelnt input rate of 5.6 gph. As stated above, you will need to check with your oil service company to see if this is the case and as to why you are running a 4.00 - 60B nozzle instead.

Another requirement of this boiler is to operate with Positive over-fire pressure in order to properly perform. There is a damper installed on the flue outlet of the boiler that has to be properly adjusted to establish a positive 0.31" w.c. of pressure over-fire and a positive 0.1" w.c. at the flue outlet breech damper. If this has been adjusted properly then the boiler should perform well and if it has not....you will not be getting the heat exchange rate you are hoping for.


All of this information is in the Installation and Operation Manual that came with the boiler. If you do not have that at or near the boiler it can be obtained from our web site at the link below. Hope this helps.

http://www.burnham.com/pdfs/CurrentPDFfiles/V9-I&O.pdf

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

www.burnham.com

thfurnitureguy_4

Yes on the 905-A and it is the Bekette

thfurnitureguy_4

Thank you Mr S. It is the V905A and I do have the Beckett CF 800. I do recall the tech saying that he had it cranked up to 150 lbs. Am I corect in thinking that this is still the wrong nozzle? Should be the 45. Also can you explain Pressure over fire and flue outlet breech? are these locations in reference to the which side of the damper you are checking pressure? I see only one test hole in the flue on the chimney side of the damper.

Unknown

The locations

to check the oer-fire pressure and breech damper pressures are provided by us. The over-fire check hole is in the rear of the boiler on the cast iron plate by the sight glass in the rear of the combustion chamber area. It is a removable brass plug. The breech damper pressure check port is also a brass plug that is in the flue collector box/damper housing either on the rear of the top canopy or on top of the canopy if it is a top outlet.

The breech damper should be adjusted to a setting to establish the positive 0.1" wc pressure on the boiler side of the damper. You should see the damper adjustment arm with a screw and wing nut to lock it into place on a semi-circular index plate with several hole in its circumference. If this is all the way to one end or the other instead of somewhere in between then the damper probably has not been set as desired. Also, the nozzle should be the 4.50-45 P and not the one that is in there. A lot of testing has been done by the burner people to verify what works best with their burners in our equipment and it makes sense to stick with those parameters. Hope this helps.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

www.burnham.com

lchmb

.02 cents

Having seen this many time's, it is possible the person who serviced your boiler was unsure of the positive pressure. I have seen a lot of 905's that were downfired to get a negative pressure. Unfortunately for you, without the proper equipment to check this, you do need a pro to come in and set it up. I would make sure to bring the install manual and the information provided by Glenn to this person's attention. I would also tell the company you decide to use the proper nozzle so that they can make sure to bring it with them and save any hassle's...good luck...

thfurnitureguy_2

I thank you for this good advice. I am going to locate my OM and hi-light the specs. Can I assume that the curent set up is causing a slow to heat or wet steam situation. What new problems may I find when fired correctly? Finally could this slower firing rate be using more fuel in the long run? Thanks T.

thfurnitureguy_4

found my instructions. they call for a 4.0GPH , 60* Type Delavan with pump @ 140 PSI. Has there been a change? or am I missing somthing?

Unknown

V904 Setup

What you have there is an older V9 series boiler. The firing rates were lower back then and are as follows as far as specs are concerned. The newer model as of 6 years ago are a V905A in lieu of the V905 that you have.

4.00 - 60B Nozzle at 140 psi
Over-fire pressure is + 0.20" w.c.
Breech Damper pressure is 0.10" w.c.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

www.burnham.com

thfurnitureguy_4

Sorry to be a pain. I have the "Beckett Oil Burner Instructions and Burner Specifications V9 Series Boilers Instruction" insert. My boiler instruction are for a V9A series Boiler. The plate on the boiler says V905A. Sound like I have the wrong Beckett book in my package. I see these are available on the net in PDF format. This maybe why the wrong nozzle is installed. What about the Burner. I'm still not clear if you buy the burner set at a pressure, or if it an adjustable deal. Is this the wrong burner/ pump assy. This burner is stamped and setup as on Beckett's plate. and the nozzle matches the Instructions I have. If this is the wrong burner for this newer boiler I think it came as a package deal from Burnham. The Beckett lit. has your stamp on it. This is all water way under the bridge, I just want it set up right. Can I set the burner up to the corect spec. or do I need a different pump to get the 150# ? Thanks for your continuing support. T.

Unknown

Burner Setup

Let me know the Serial Number of the boiler on the boiler rating plate. Also....what does the rating plate on the boiler say as far as model number....V905 or V905A? Disregard the Beckett insert you have. The I&O manual has the correct setup data in it for your burner.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

www.burnham.com

thfurnitureguy_4

I am sure of the 905A I can get the SN. I have no Burner set instructions in the I/O book. Pub # 8142958-8/98 I have a seporate pub. Form # 8142941R1.10/95.950f

Unknown

Which model???

> I am sure of the 905A I can get the SN. I have

> no Burner set instructions in the I/O book. Pub

> # 8142958-8/98 I have a seporate pub. Form #

> 8142941R1.10/95.950f



Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

www.burnham.com

Unknown

Which model???

The transition from the V9 to the V9A series was in July of 1998. The manual you have is from August of 1998 or real close to that transition. A real easy way to tell which one you have is to look at the boiler supply pipe where it threads into the top of the boiler. If that pipe is 3" diameter and the tapping in the boiler is also 3" with no bushing in the boiler, then you have the V9 series. If there is a 3" supply pipe threaded into a 4"x3" bushing in the boiler you have the V9A. If you have the V9A then the initial setup data provided in my earlier post is correct. If you have the V9 setup data provided is correct. In some cases, because these boilers are generally shipped in a knock-down configuration, there is the possibility of a bit of a mixup of what you have for literature from us versus the Beckett insert. If that Beckett data is for the V9A then it should be the higher pump setting with the 4.50-45P nozzle. We began incorporating the burner setup data in out I&O manuals in 1999 to clarify the setup data. Sorry for the confusion.

Glenn

thfurnitureguy_2

Help, the burner guy was just here

Ser.# 64039928 We checked the pressure and the pump is holding 145psi. The burner guy just set the damper to the +0.1 at the flue breech. Did not check over fire. said they were both controled by the damper? He also did not like the + pressure. He said it might soot up and he would be back in a week? The damper was all the way open before. He did check the chimney draft and said it was good (-3 I think). The solonoid valve (Fuel delay) was restricting the pressure at the nozzle to 120 psi. With much convincing, he is bringing a 4.5-45P nozzle and a new solonoid valve. He didn't know what the P was for in the nozzle rating. Anybody Know? Also his guage/ meter was jumping between -0.1 at the flue breech and +0.1 His probe did not fit tight in the hole is this normal? Should he check for soot, Co, . Over all His thoughts were that the nozzle difference would not make much, if any diference in performance and the positive pressure was not a good thing. Is there a sequence to checking these pressures? should they be steady and accurate? Will they change with the new nozzle? in other words should he re-check after the new nozzle is installed? Is there a difference between the over fire and the flue breech or as long as one is on its all good? Yes I know less now than I did before. Sorry for the 20 questions. The top main pipe masures 4.25 OD I assume this is 4" id no reducer, just 4" to the H-loop. V9-A right?

thfurnitureguy_2

re-post

Unknown

Setup

The positive pressure at the breech will bring in the positive pressure over-fire as well. He needs to check this with a sealed connection by threading a barbed adapter into the threaded test hole. This generally checked with an instrument such as a manometer. If you were running this with the breech damper wide open then it was NOT set up correctly from the start. If you have difficulty achieving the positive pressure check all of the cleanout plates for a tight seal as well as the canopy gasket. This boiler needs to be tight to be able to run positive. Also disregard all of the responses to your new post as they are all referring to residential equipment that operates with negative over-fire pressure which is controlled by Barometric damper adjustments.

I will be on the road for the next few days and may not be able to respond to posts. If you need any further assistance contact our Technical Services Dept. at 1-800-722-0720. They will be glad to assist.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

www.burnham.com

thfurnitureguy_2

Glenn, Should his test and adjustment to the damper be done at the over fire location and rechecked at the flue breech to confirm that the unit is sealed? The boss is telling me that they only check at the breech. This is how Beckett showed them. Did we confirm that the boiler is a 905A from the serial#?

Unknown

Burner Setup

Test at the breech damper and the over-fire should fall into place. I do advise checking at the over-fire location just to see what the over-fire pressur is though. The serial number indicates a V905A from September of 1998. As you can see by most of the responses to your posts, there is a general misunderstanding of how to set up a pressue-fire boiler correctly. From your original post I had a feeling that you would find the breech damper wide open. With a setting like this you are putting most of the available heat right up the chimney instead of in the boiler where it will do its job of properly raising the water temperature.

Glenn Stanton

Manager of Training

Burnham Hydronics

www.burnham.com

thfurnitureguy_2

Glenn, Thanks! I'll let you know how it works out.