counterflow steam

t. tekushan

Greetings-

I just had a chance today to balance and adjust a very single pipe counterflow steam system. Actually, it was eight systems. Its two adjoining apartment buildings with four suites each. Each suite has its own 140 EDR counterflow steam system. All I needed to do was adjust the pressurtrols (WAY down) and adjust the radiator vents.

What I noticed was how extraordinarily simple and effective these systems are. I saw no odd problems at all with this system.

My question: in retrofitting a home to steam heat (yes, I'm serious) is this an acceptable way to go? Outside of the pipe size, arrangement and pitch issues, what is the maximum EDR you can expect it to handle without problems?

Ken_8

There is no limit

Not theoretically that is.

If you can get the pipe large enough to allow the passage of the air and steam in one direction and the condensate in the other, there is no theoretical limit, only a "practical" one.

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t. tekushan

hmmm

This is my own home I'm speaking of. I have all of the correct sizes of American Rococo steam radiators for the house. I also have two Burnham 4 year old (pulled from a "rahab" job. Nitwits, but no matter) boilers that are each correctly sized for half of the total required EDR. The house is around 1900 square feet. I thought that it would be quite novel to run the sleeping and living areas completely separately! Separate setbacks and all, seems like a wonderful idea.

Boiler Guy

Cool oops HOT idea

Talk to Mad Dog or Steamhead. Sounds to me like you are on the right track.

Steamhead

I've done this

and yes, it is a wonderful idea. The system I designed and helped build was parallel-flow, but counterflow will work fine if done right.

When running counterflow, the mains must be one size larger than if they're parallel-flow. Also they need more pitch. And you don't want to run the condensate back into the boiler header- this will chill the steam. Drip the condensate next to the boiler and run it into a Hartford Loop. You'll find pipe sizing info in chapter 7 of "The Lost Art of Steam Heating".

You'll find cutting, threading and installing all that black pipe will give you quite a workout. No need to go to the gym!

Vent the mains properly. By now I know you'll have the main lengths and diameters worked out before you start. Install tees at the ends of your mains for the vents.

Take pics as you go, and be prepared for steam freaks to knock on your door and ask to see your new system. Maybe we'll have "Steamstock" in your town.......

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thfurnitureguy_4

quick discription of counter flow system

for us wood workers what is a counter flow system?

michael_15

quick description, as far as I know

A parallel-flow steam system has steam and condensate running in the same direction along the supply main. The supply main will be pitched downward as it moves away from the boiler. At the end of the main, there is usually a main vent, after which the pipe drops into a wet or dry return and goes back to the boiler.

In a counterflow system, the supply main is pitched upwards as is moves away from the boiler. Thus, steam and condensate move in opposite directions in the supply main. Because of this, you need bigger pipes and more pitch for the counterflow main.

-Michael

Unknown

Big pipes

The steam and water (condensate) flow in opposite directions in the same mains.

The water needs to be handled at the boiler location such that it doesn't enter the boiler through the supply risers, or the equalizer. The main usually gets dripped at the end and connects to the hartford loop tee. The supply pipe from the boiler usually drops into the top of this main about a foot away from the drip.

Noel

michael_15

of course

If you have an improperly piped system like, say, the one in the house I just moved into, the counterflow supply main will drip right back into the header. Yuck. Of course, my system has loads of classic near-boiler piping mistakes.

-Michael

EBEBRATT-Ed

Your piping may be wrong by todays standards but that dosent mean it won't work. The old boilers steamed slow and steady when coal fired and the boilers had a large steam chest for steam disengagement. Because of this these systems may work ok with the old boiler but not with a replacement.

Steamhead

They'll work OK

with a replacement boiler if the replacement is sized and piped properly, and the mains are vented properly.

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t. tekushan

Piping

As it happens, the "pulled" boilers I have are from a third building in this grouping. They went to electric baseboard $$$.

The Burnhams (4-5 years old) were piped such that the main is supplied by a vertical riser that drops straight down the side of the boiler into the boiler's return fitting at the bottom. The steam outlet on the top of the boiler comes straight up (parallel with this drop) for about 36 inches, turns 90 degrees and T's into this drop. This way, little or no condensate can reach the steam outlet and instead continues its way down to the water line and into the boiler. It doesn't look like a Hartford, but it is an equalizer. Since there is NO piping below the main, there's no danger of the boiler draining. There's no hammer, and its quiet and effective (to my surprise).

I honestly expected to detect some turbulence where the the steam supply meets the condensate flow at the T but there doesn't appear to be any. I'm assuming that the complete absence of end-of-main vents in this system controls the velocity. Ironically, the main is vented through the radiators, but since they all have adjustable vents everything heats evenly. I'm surprised at how quickly, too.
I really never expected the arrangement I found in these buildings to work so well. Do you think its because of the limited EDR and use of individual boilers?

Steamhead

Piping arrangement sounds right

it's close to what Dan illustrates in Lost Art. How long were the original steam mains and what pipe size? I have a hard time believing you can get away without main vents....

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t. tekushan

main size, length

The main is only 2" and the length of the main is about thirty feet, decreasing in size at each riser. The largest, fastest venting radiator is conveniently located at the end of the main, where the main els at 45 degrees and then 45's again straight up.

t. tekushan

hope

I hope its the steam freaks knocking and not the pipes!

Steamhead

I'd use

a Gorton #1 on the end of that main. Try it and see how much better it works.

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t. tekushan

Thank You

Thanks so much for all of your input. And Gorton #1 it is.

The project will start late summer/very early fall of this year. All STEAM FREAKS are welcome for the dedication ceremony!

Terry (cleveland)

Mad Dog

Stop! ypur getting me excited

You sound like you are up for the job. Go for it, we'll be here to help. Mad Dog

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t. tekushan

heavy

you guys (i'm presuming) are great!

I spent the morning moving the boilers and a few radiators from one storage space to one much closer to home.

I'm in pain.

I'm surmising that one of the reason these systems aren't installed anymore (aside from the cost) is that they're SO #*&@%# HEAVY! But this only deters me for a few hours