Heating with the windows wide open (1p steam)

michael_15

At the place of one of my friends, I was surprised to find that the radiators (one pipe steam) were <b><i>enormous</b></i>. For example, the dining room (which has only 1 exterior wall) is about 10x10 (small), but the radiator is around 100 sqft EDR. They also, for reasons which escape me, seem to be incorrectly installed on the warm (far from window) side of every room.

This led me to suspect one of two things:

   1) This was designed to heat the house with the windows wide open (influenza or what not), or

   2) The installer was either misinformed about what "square feet EDR" was used for, or lazy (but not too lazy to bring up some awfully big radiators).

Or both.

Anyway, the home is extremely well insulated, and, well, probably has a really big boiler. Even if the boiler isn't oversized for the attached radiation, it would probably need to be at least a 500sqft rated boiler. I assume this creates disproportionately large fuel bills.

Is there an easy fix for this sort of problem that doesn't involve replacing the radiators (or trying to pry sections off)?

-Michael

Unknown

One Pipe Steam Valve





Operation


The Macon one-pipe steam valve assembly consists of the reliable B26000 direct mounting thermostat. The thermostatic head contains a temperature sensitive wax which expands and contracts on a rise and fall of temperature in the sensed area. When the temperature rises above the temperature selected, pressure from the expanding wax closes the valve, preventing or restricting the flow of steam through the radiation unit. When the room temperature drops below the selected temperature, the valve opens and allows an increase of steam flow through the radiation unit. This modulating process continues automatically to maintain the temperature you selected.



Important:
1 Installing the Macon one-pipe steam valve assembly does not eliminate other controls in the system. The boiler must be cycled in some manner.


2 If the boiler is cycled from a space thermostat in one zone, do not apply a radiator valve to that zone's radiation.


3 Do not apply a radiator valve in a one-pipe steam system that does not use steam air vents venting to the atmosphere on each radiation unit.


4 Vacuum break is required for proper operation.


5 Vacuum break is required for proper operation.


Connections: 1/8" male NPT inlet

Features:
- Compact dimensions


- Nickel-plated, forged brass valve

- Thermostat may be locked at or limited to any desired temperature or temperature range


- Actuators may be changed without shutting down the system


- Valve may be installed by dropping the system down to zero pressure

- Individual room control for greater comfort


- Replaceable insert


- Stainless Steel spindle


- Fuel savings up to 30% or more


- Nonelectric - fully automatic


- Prevents over- and under-heating


- Reliability


- Remote thermostats available - call or write for the distributor nearest you!


- Vent included

Noel

Steve Garson

Michael:

The place may have been renovated over the years and small rooms made, windows moved, etc.

1. Install adjustable air vent and open to smallest setting. (cheap)

2. Install thermostaticall controlled vent (~125+) which will not open the vent if the room is warm enough.

3. Cover the radiator with a quilt or blanket (really) to insulate and reduce convection and radiation of heat.

Steve Garson

Michael:

The place may have been renovated over the years and small rooms made, windows moved, etc.

1. Install adjustable air vent and open to smallest setting. (cheap)

2. Install thermostaticall controlled vent (~125+) which will not open the vent if the room is warm enough.

3. Cover the radiator with a quilt or blanket (really) to insulate and reduce convection and radiation of heat.

michael_15

Hmm.

I like the idea of covering the radiator with a blanket. I'm not sure, though, how closing the adjustable air vents would help in terms of efficiency/fuel. Certainly, the radiators will heat more slowly, but this doesn't change the fact that we've got a boiler sized to feed a bunch of monstrous radiators. It's not like there's just one big radiator -- they're all huge.

Since the boiler is so large, doesn't using tiny vents on the radiators mean a lot of hissing once the main vents shut off from steam? It's a second+third floor unit, so there's quite a bit of riser piping and I haven't seen evidence of the risers having their own main vents.

Of course, I haven't tried this yet, though I can recommend it (heck, it's not my house). Another thing I'd be afraid of is the boiler (again, let's assume it's extra big) actually shutting off on pressure if all of the vents in the house are too small. Unless that's ridiculous and never happens. . .

-Michael

Unknown

If the vents are all closed

Then the thermostat would be satisfied.

Noel

Steve Garson

Michael:

The air vents won't hiss if they are working, they simply close when hot. If the boiler shuts on pressure, that's what it is designed to do. But perhaps there is too much pressure. Does your friend rent the whole house? If so, there are some basic tests on the controls that can be done. Pressure should be low.

michael_15

pressure and hissing

They rent the 2nd and 3rd floors of a three-floor home.

The pressure question had to do with the following thing I imagined in my head. You've got a huge boiler with huge amounts of radiation attached. However, it's heating a tiny space. You try to compensate by putting the smallest radiator vent possible on. These are old column radiators with fairly significant amounts of air; that along with the tall risers means a lot of air for the radiator vent itself.

Now, once the mains are filled and the main vents close (and there's still no heat delivered to the living space), you've got a huge boiler creating big amounts of steam -- all trying to go out the tiny radiator vent. You generate lots of steam, but there isn't much place for the air to get out. So the pressure goes up. You hit 1.5 lbs or pressure (or whatever your cut-out is) while the steam is still pushing up the riser. The boiler shuts off. After a minute or so, enough air has escaped through that tiny vent that the boiler turns back on. Of course, then it generates all that steam again, but with just that tiny radiator vent trying to vent out the huge boiler, pressure builds up and the boiler shuts off again.

Perhaps I'm letting my imagination run too wild.

In any case, I asked my friend about it and in reality (versus my messed up imagination), the vents never close. By the time the first few columns on the radiator get hot, the thermostat is satisfied and so are the people. In fact, even after the boiler shuts off, the carryover heat is enough to make them uncomfortably warm. It works like this:

Thermostat set at 70.

Temperature drops to 68. Boiler turns on.

Temperature rises to 69 degrees. (Thermostat is about 10 feet from the radiator.) Anticipator turns off boiler.

Temperature continues to rise (there's very little heat loss here) to about 73 or 74. Residents feel uncomfortable.


Given that, would it be possible just to severely undersize the boiler with respect to the connected radiation? You'd just need enough to manage the full pick-up factor to heat the pipes and then enough to heat maybe the first 10-20% of the radiator columns. . .

-Michael

Unknown

Do the blanket thing

The boiler kinda needs to be that size for the radiators and piping, when cold.

Cover the radiators so they give up heat slower, but vent the hell out of the system. Crank up the heat anticipator in the thermostat, and then back it off as needed to suit taste.

The radiators still will heat the room, but slower. They'll stay hot longer, and that's the savings. Longer on cycles by a little, and longer off cycles by a lot. Experiment with it.

Don't mess with the setpoint on the thermostat for a while. See how it behaves. After you get to know how it acts, then set it back, if you like. Set back sometimes introduces problems. It's good to know the difference.

Too much iron isn't a problem, usually.

Using the fire wisely is the key.

Noel